Pistol paper cartridges

[Darto]

I switched to this fast method for now. Has been fun. Very fast to make. I'm using in a .36 1851 Colt.

 

[Eras Gone]

Is the Dragoon cartridge the 242 bullet followed by 35 grns that has been posted?

The Dragoon bullet is 259 grains and the former uses about 35 grains of powder.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

All this talk of paper cartridges inspired me to roll this batch today:

Some call these “combustible envelope paper cartridges”. I just call them “papes” (rhymes with “grapes”).

 

[Darto]

I bought some Tops papers at Amazon. No longer need glue nor bottom seal disc nor fixing the ball at the top. Can do this while watching TV and not really paying attention, nothing is tricky.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I bought some Tops papers at Amazon. No longer need glue nor bottom seal disc nor fixing the ball at the top. Can do this while watching TV and not really paying attention, nothing is tricky.

I’m going to try that they look GOOD.

 

[david.stieghan]

The bullet or ball you use depends on why you chose to shoot black powder percussion revolvers. The replicas are made mostly by Italian firms that care only for mass sales and not original dimensions or ballistics. The rifling pitch, etc., on the replicas doesn’t match the originals. The loading lever piston noses are produced in the replicas to shoot only round balls and not conical bullets. The loading port length and loading piston length are often too short to load period conical bullets. I have to disassemble my loading levers and shorten the pistons and drill and team the nose for pointed bullets or they will be rammed blunt.

Why do I bother? Because that’s how the original pistols were made and how the Union and Confederate ordnance departments issued bullets in fixed cartridges in the Civil War. Nitrated paper, nitrated “skin”, compressed powder, etc., glued to pointed bullets composed almost all of the pistol ammunition issued on both sides during the war. The private purchase bullet molds used by civilians to cast their own ammunition usually had a picket bullet and round ball cavities to provide options. But, the rifling twist and loading space were designed for pointed picket bullets in the original guns. Loading, and reloading, in a fight (or in a saddle) is a lot easier when you pull a string around the paper label and dump the fixed cartridges out of the protective wooden box with drilled holes to protect the fixed cartridges.

You should shoot what is most accurate in your revolver in the manner you prefer. However, shooters are rediscovering the original methods of loading and shooting black powder weapons and we are fortunate that replica bullet molds for a variety of original projectiles are now available for those who wish to shoot in a traditional manner. While I cast bullets in both original or replica molds for original and replica guns, I have to experiment to find what shoots best in each weapon. Eras Gone, Robert Bradley, Paper Cartridges, and other custom makers or molds and cartridges make it easier to shoot closer to the original method. Salute!

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

The bullet or ball you use depends on why you chose to shoot black powder percussion revolvers. The replicas are made mostly by Italian firms that care only for mass sales and not original dimensions or ballistics. The rifling pitch, etc., on the replicas doesn’t match the originals. The loading lever piston noses are produced in the replicas to shoot only round balls and not conical bullets. The loading port length and loading piston length are often too short to load period conical bullets. I have to disassemble my loading levers and shorten the pistons and drill and team the nose for pointed bullets or they will be rammed blunt.

Why do I bother? Because that’s how the original pistols were made and how the Union and Confederate ordnance departments issued bullets in fixed cartridges in the Civil War. Nitrated paper, nitrated “skin”, compressed powder, etc., glued to pointed bullets composed almost all of the pistol ammunition issued on both sides during the war. The private purchase bullet molds used by civilians to cast their own ammunition usually had a picket bullet and round ball cavities to provide options. But, the rifling twist and loading space were designed for pointed picket bullets in the original guns. Loading, and reloading, in a fight (or in a saddle) is a lot easier when you pull a string around the paper label and dump the fixed cartridges out of the protective wooden box with drilled holes to protect the fixed cartridges.

You should shoot what is most accurate in your revolver in the manner you prefer. However, shooters are rediscovering the original methods of loading and shooting black powder weapons and we are fortunate that replica bullet molds for a variety of original projectiles are now available for those who wish to shoot in a traditional manner. While I cast bullets in both original or replica molds for original and replica guns, I have to experiment to find what shoots best in each weapon. Eras Gone, Robert Bradley, Paper Cartridges, and other custom makers or molds and cartridges make it easier to shoot closer to the original method. Salute!

All good points but there were those that preferred round balls too, though.

Elmer Keith interviewed real Confederate veterans when he was younger and they all preferred the loosely loaded round ball in their .36 caliber revolvers. These men claimed “it took all the fight” out of the enemy, and they didn’t like the conical paper cartridges that well for fighting. They said they’d use them for executing livestock for food, the conical being preferred for punching through a steer’s head etc.

So while it is very much true that conicals and paper cartridges were used more frequently especially in the military, it is certainly also true that not everyone was hip to them, just like today.

I’ll take the experience of the veterans who actually fought and died with these weapons. I keep my Pietta .36 Navy loaded with round balls. But the conicals are sure fun and very cool as well!

 

[Desperate Lee]

All good points but there were those that preferred round balls too, though.

Elmer Keith interviewed real Confederate veterans when he was younger and they all preferred the loosely loaded round ball in their .36 caliber revolvers. These men claimed “it took all the fight” out of the enemy, and they didn’t like the conical paper cartridges that well for fighting. They said they’d use them for executing livestock for food, the conical being preferred for punching through a steer’s head etc.

So while it is very much true that conicals and paper cartridges were used more frequently especially in the military, it is certainly also true that not everyone was hip to them, just like today.

I’ll take the experience of the veterans who actually fought and died with these weapons. I keep my Pietta .36 Navy loaded with round balls. But the conicals are sure fun and very cool as well!

I prefer round ball in my 44's. Not so much because of accuracy but because i just do. The 200 and 230 grain conicals kick more than the 180 grain round ball. With 25 to 30 grains powder i get good accuracy and a lot less recoil. Now this is just my personal opinion and you can take it with a grain of salt for a better flavor. LOL

 

[Lippy984]

All this talk of paper cartridges inspired me to roll this batch today:
View attachment 40080
Some call these “combustible envelope paper cartridges”. I just call them “papes” (rhymes with “grapes”).

What holster is that you have there?

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

What holster is that you have there?

It was made by Dove and Dandy’s Westernwear. I also have a matching gun belt, cap box, and cartridge box for it. Great rig! In the field I normally just use a plain black military style flap holster, made in a non-regulation pattern mirrored for crossdraw off the left hip.

 

[Zonie]

The few times I've tried shooting bullets out of my C&B pistols I didn't like the fact that they needed a considerable increase in the pressure on the loading lever to get them into the chambers.
Even if the diameter of the bullets is the same as the roundballs, they do take more pressure to load them. That's because with a roundball, the length of the material that must be sheared off of the outside is considerably less than the length of the material on a bullet. All of that extra length gives support to the lead that's being sheared making it resist being removed.
As an example, with a roundball, the length of the material that's being sheared off is maybe 3/32" long. That's not much material so it doesn't have a lot of strength. A bullet on the other hand might have .250 worth of material backing up the lead that is being sheared off.

I'll just stick to loading roundballs. It's a lot easier on my gun's loading lever and the balls are more than enough to do the job I want done.

 

[Darto]

My .36 conicals are narrower on the lower parts and seat smoother than some. They were sold by Dixie a few years ago but not any more. I have hundreds of them I bought when a kid. But the round balls still seat easier and the conicals have a lube groove and so that's another step.

Uberti 1860's have a larger cutout on the rammer than Piettas and Uberti reams a hole into the top of the rammer head and so they don't flatten bullets and conicals fit in there compared to Piettas.

I imagine the armies issued conicals because their tests showed they penetrated more pine boards than round ball.