please help 8 Bore Flintlock

[ken.clements]

I bought an 8 bore smoothbore flintlock that is in surprisingly good shape, much better than the pictures that I saw when put in my offer.
To be honest with you all, I’m somewhat scared to shoot the darn thing. I’ve got no problems with the condition of the Flintlock, it has all the stamps (Belgian), nothing to make me say “that’s unsafe”.
The only loading information I’ve found in the Internet is 273 grains Swiss 2 / 1250 grain Ball (Minie maybe?), which to be honest scares the heck out of me”¦or between 136 and 164 grains of powder and 1,5 ”“ 2 ounces of shot.
I will only shoot it once or twice a year for fun at a range. I do not hunt. I cannot use it for any competition shooting. I would like to shoot a ball out it.
Where can I start with a SAFE load for buckshot?
Can I shoot a ball with it SAFELY without having to worry about expanding gas blowing this thing up and beheading me? Where can I start”¦with what load? Is there a (maybe stupid of me asking) minimum powder load with a ball?
What screen size powder?
I believe I’ve caught a bear by the tail with this one, and I need help :shocked2:
I can send pictures per email if anyone is interested”¦.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Assuming it is a safe piece to shoot I would go ahead and start light.
If you can find a ball (about .800") a mild charge of 50 grains bp will get you over the pants wetting stage.
After that work up just like any other gun. Enjoy. But do post some pictures. hotoSmile:

 

[ken.clements]

pants wetting stage? :grin: ya, well..when you are looking at bore of just under 1 inch :grin:
here are some picts: http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/ken-clements/SAM_0350.jpg http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/ken-clements/SAM_0349.jpg http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/ken-clements/SAM_0348.jpg http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/ken-clements/SAM_0347.jpg http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/ken-clements/SAM_0346.jpg http://s1121.photobucket.com/albums/l505/ken-clements/?action=view&current=SAM_0351.jpg

 

[Rifleman1776]

I’m somewhat scared to shoot the darn thing

Don't worry, I won't tell anyone you said that. :wink:
Anyhow, can we say "doglock"?
Is the frizzen broken?
It looks neat, I would like to have an opportunity to shoot it. Very exciting ml gun.
Keep us informed of your progress with it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

An 8 Ga. is nominally .835" in bore diameter. You won't possibly know what your barrel's bore diameter is without actually measuring it yourself.

The "Rule of Thumb"( which means no "rule" at all!)is to use a ball diameter that is .020" SMALLER in diameter than the actual bore diameter.

So, you will be looking for a ball that is .815" in diameter. Jeff Tanner, who is in England, makes single cavity brass molds in any diameter, so I would recommend him as a source of an affordable mold for this gun.

I have a friend from my local BP gun club, who built his own 8 gauge single barrel, percussion shotgun. He handed it to me to fire, and when I had done so, admitted that he had put 6 drams(165 grains!) of FFg powder behind 4 oz.!! of shot.

HELLO! :shocked2:

To my knowledge he has yet to get RBs to shoot out of the gun. I did talk him into reducing his load a bit-- He's down to 4 drams( 110 grains FFg Goex) and 3 oz of shot.

I am trying to get down to 3 1/2 drams(95 grains) and 1 1/2 oz. of shot for clay targets. This would be a "Magnum" 12 ga. load, and a light 10 ga. load. But, recoil would be negligible, and that short column of shot should produce much better patterns, making the gun fun to shoot at clays.

After shooting that 6 dram load in his gun, I would also bee afraid to fire more than 250 grains of powder in that gun, off my shoulder! That suggested load is simply nuts- so wrong it defies logic. Ignore it. It sounds more like a light cannon powder charge, where the barrel is massive in both diameter and weight. Cannons also are not normally shot from the shoulder! (Yes, I have experience shooting mortars & cannons).

Finally, don't be afraid to try using Fg powder in that large bore gun. It burns slower than FFg, of course, but may produce better, denser patterns for you. :hmm:

 

[rickystl]

Hi Ken. Congrats on your new purchase.
I believe your gun was (or at least the lock) was made for the South African trade late 19th or early 20th Century.
Dixie Gun Works back in the late 1960's and early 1970's was offering a similar gun but with a different one-piece or two-piece lock. Additionally, I recall their catalog offering locks - only - exactly like the one on your gun. Speaking of which.....I just recently purchased a lock (only) exactly like the one on your gun. When I received the lock it was comeplete, but had never had holes drilled in it for mounting to a gun. Looked unused. Looked like the whole lock was made using files. Anyway, after further investigation I discovered the the tumbler/sear relationship on mine seemed to be wrong. Maybe my lock was a reject? That's why it was never mounted. The lock is being worked on as I write. So hopefully it will be in working order when done.
Well, if you ever have a need for a spare lock, you know where to find one. :haha:
Let us know how she shoots. Rick.

 

[Teleoceras]

Ken:

I have a Jeff Tanner .800 round ball mold and it makes a great ball. With my 8 bore, I shoot an .800rb with a .010 patch over a 130gr Fg charge. She is pretty accurate with that load and the recoil isn't bad.

Good luck with your beastie! :grin:

Slowmatch Forever!
Teleoceras

 

[ken.clements]

Thank you all for your reply's :hatsoff:

I got the Flintlock at an Auction (online) and it was rusty, dirty, and generally yucky. The gentleman who sold it said there were no proof marks.
It took me 8 hours to clean it, there are proof marks just under / next to the wooden stock. The lock itself with all parts are also marked.

Ricky: The lock insides (the guts behind the Plate) are very soft and they were full of gunk....The lock itself didn't work (didn't stay cocked). After cleaning it up, polishing what I could, the thingy that holds the hammer is way to soft and has to be replaced. Somebody also filed around on it. I'm looking around in Germany for a gunsmith who knows ML's which is difficult to find.

Teleceras: I'll be looking around for a mould....I definitly want to shoot a marble of this size :grin: (untill it comes time pull the trigger :redface: )...at least see the looks on the faces of the club members when I unpack it and load it.... :haha:

Pallvallandigham: I've only got Swiss 2 right now, but I will order a 1f powder this week. Right now I'm looking for a gunsmith that can rebuild my lock, the metal is way to soft and it won't stay cocked. I have to get it up to par first.

Rifleman: Frizzen? Is that the piece of metal that sparks? Nothing outside is broken or bent. There are no grooves or anything on the metal that could cause sparks, and the metal itself is way to soft, inside and outside. The part that holds the hammer is way to soft, the springs cut into the part and twist it around behind the plate causing the hammer to swing crooked when its going down.

another thing I noticed.....the grain on the wood....the wood is very light. I believe it is stained pine?? It is definitly not Walnut or hard wood....I'm going to have to look into that before I shoot it. :idunno:

but heck....I may not ever hit anything with it on the Range....but it will make HUGE holes :grin:

 

[4570tc]

I might have missed it , but I gonna ask again. What's it weigh?

 

Ken,
I had one that was your gun's sister. Mine was marked Kirkland Arms and was Belgian proofed. It was made for the Sfrican trade and imported during the 50's and 60's by Turner Kirkland of Dixie Gunworks. Mine had what appears to be a later flint lock than yours and it worked and sparked well. If you can find a Syoeger catalog from around 1954-1955, they were listed for sale. I had Jeff Tanner make a mold for it and I think it was .810-.815. A tight patch and 75 grains of 2F were plenty to have fun with out to around 50 yards. They really don't kick you around much, unless you use pretty heavy charges.
Mark

 

[rickystl]

Hi Ken. I agree with your assessment that the parts on the lock are too soft. I am having all the parts hardened properly by a gunsmith that knows how to do this. I'll let you know his opinion and how mine turns out. I should hear something in the next couple weeks. I purchased the my lock just to add it to my lock collection. But I still want it to work properly.
If you can't locate the right gunsmith there, you might consider sending it to one in the U.S. It would be a small shipment and would not cost much in shipping both ways. Rick.

 

[Dphar]

I bought an 8 bore smoothbore flintlock that is in surprisingly good shape, much better than the pictures that I saw when put in my offer.
To be honest with you all, I’m somewhat scared to shoot the darn thing. I’ve got no problems with the condition of the Flintlock, it has all the stamps (Belgian), nothing to make me say “that’s unsafe”.
The only loading information I’ve found in the Internet is 273 grains Swiss 2 / 1250 grain Ball (Minie maybe?), which to be honest scares the heck out of me”¦or between 136 and 164 grains of powder and 1,5 ”“ 2 ounces of shot.
I will only shoot it once or twice a year for fun at a range. I do not hunt. I cannot use it for any competition shooting. I would like to shoot a ball out it.
Where can I start with a SAFE load for buckshot?
Can I shoot a ball with it SAFELY without having to worry about expanding gas blowing this thing up and beheading me? Where can I start”¦with what load? Is there a (maybe stupid of me asking) minimum powder load with a ball?
What screen size powder?
I believe I’ve caught a bear by the tail with this one, and I need help :shocked2:
I can send pictures per email if anyone is interested”¦.

Some of the Belgian made stuff was made for export to Africa (trade guns) even in the 20th century and is not much better than wall hanger grade.
If its a GOOD grade Belgian made gun its one thing. But most of these I have ever seen in flint are "trade guns" and I would not shoot one.
Some are as large as 4 bore.

Dan

 

[KABAR2]

First off this is not a dog lock it was made for the African trade, DGW sold these locks for years they are crudly made & cheap....DWG may still have them in stock.... I guess this was the African trade version to the elefant gun.... I would think about re-locking it with a dependible flint lock....

 

[ken.clements]

I might have missed it , but I gonna ask again. What's it weigh?

twice as heavy as my Zouave :grin: I dont know excatly, buts its not something I want to carry around

 

[ken.clements]

Hi Ken. I agree with your assessment that the parts on the lock are too soft. I am having all the parts hardened properly by a gunsmith that knows how to do this. I'll let you know his opinion and how mine turns out. I should hear something in the next couple weeks. I purchased the my lock just to add it to my lock collection. But I still want it to work properly.
If you can't locate the right gunsmith there, you might consider sending it to one in the U.S. It would be a small shipment and would not cost much in shipping both ways. Rick.

I called The Rifle Shoppe in Oklahoma yesterday and they are going to make me a new one, all proper and such :hatsoff:
I know of only one Gunsmith here that could do the quality work I want done and he has a backlog of 8 months or more....and thats after looking and asking for more than a year :shocked2:

 

[ken.clements]

I bought an 8 bore smoothbore flintlock that is in surprisingly good shape, much better than the pictures that I saw when put in my offer.
To be honest with you all, I’m somewhat scared to shoot the darn thing. I’ve got no problems with the condition of the Flintlock, it has all the stamps (Belgian), nothing to make me say “that’s unsafe”.
The only loading information I’ve found in the Internet is 273 grains Swiss 2 / 1250 grain Ball (Minie maybe?), which to be honest scares the heck out of me”¦or between 136 and 164 grains of powder and 1,5 ”“ 2 ounces of shot.
I will only shoot it once or twice a year for fun at a range. I do not hunt. I cannot use it for any competition shooting. I would like to shoot a ball out it.
Where can I start with a SAFE load for buckshot?
Can I shoot a ball with it SAFELY without having to worry about expanding gas blowing this thing up and beheading me? Where can I start”¦with what load? Is there a (maybe stupid of me asking) minimum powder load with a ball?
What screen size powder?
I believe I’ve caught a bear by the tail with this one, and I need help :shocked2:
I can send pictures per email if anyone is interested”¦.

Some of the Belgian made stuff was made for export to Africa (trade guns) even in the 20th century and is not much better than wall hanger grade.
If its a GOOD grade Belgian made gun its one thing. But most of these I have ever seen in flint are "trade guns" and I would not shoot one.
Some are as large as 4 bore.

Dan

The barrel has all the neccessary belgian proof marks....The first shot will be made in a rifle clamp where I am far away :grin:
I've seen a Belgian 4 Bore...to tell the truth with my Flintlock, because of the quality of the Lock, the shape of the stock..I believe it is a prototype or something of the sort. All metalwork with the exception of the barrel is very rough.

 

[voltigeur]

very nice gun,I love this kind of bore.
I don't surprised if it was tested with 350gr for the proof with bullet of course.
the proof marks on barrel is probably hidden by the wood.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Ken. Glad you found a solution. I'll let you know what the Gunsmith says about mine when I hear from him in a couple weeks. Should be interesting :hmm: Hope he can fix it. Rick.

 

[Zoar]

Ken----Good find. Yes changing out the lock is probably the best "next first step".

I shoot a 4 bore. 1.015 inch bore diameter and the ball weighs a quarter pound!

That said, do not get all worried about blowing thyself up. It is a front stuffer so just start with lower powder and payload... Shoot a payload of a fist full of BB's. You can get them in Germany.

Powder: Load up 100 grains of any grind of Black Powder under a cork wad with either 2 ounces of BB's or a 10 gauge or even 12 gauge lead ball with a thick wad around it. I am sure you can find 10 or 12 gauge round lead balls in Germany... Use them. Just put a heavy cloth patch on them. Try an old undershirt cloth.

It sounds like you won't be shooting it much at all (1 or 2 times a year) so you are not looking for super accuracy. As you said you want to shoot it more for the AFFECT it will have on the other guys at the range (strictly entertainment). No reason for you to need to load it up with more than 120 to 130 grains of black powder.

Also if you still think it may be too scary or too much work or money you need to put into it to get it to work, please private message me. I may be interested in buying it.

 

[ken.clements]

Hello Zoar,
I think I'm gonna keep it :grin: If for nothing else....then to take to the range and unpack it :rotf: :haha:
I have to have the lock newly made (Rifle Shoppe)and thats going to take a couple of months, build a case for it for my room.....and pour me some cannon balls for it :haha: :haha:
I have no Idea what they are going for in the US, but trust me, this one was a almost a gift. I've paid lots more for lots less :cursing: (I didn't just admit that, did I?) :slap:

which grain and maker of powder di you use?