Please help me "design" a TVM Early Virginia Rifle

[cjsoccer3]

Hi everyone,

I hope all is well. Apologies as I am brand new to the site, and I hope to give no illusion that I know much about flintlocks. I would like to order my first flintlock and after considering options and price I have decided to choose tennessee valley muzzleloading. I plan to use the gun for deer hunting. My design choices are:

- Early Virginia Rifle (this style has a gentle curving butt plate that I think would make for a great comfortable shooter)
- 45 cal (this can use 3F powder in both the muzzle and the pan and will match the powder of my cap and ball revolvers for convenience. It is also the minimum caliber to deer hunt in Virginia where I am located).
- Walnut stock with a dark brown finish (this video shows the exact look: )
- Swamped 42 inch rifled barrel (I hear this is more accurate in the field). My shots are normally from a crouched position while still hunting at the base of a tree (if this detail matters on a straight vs swamped barrel decision). I am open to any specific high quality barrel recommendations.
- Double set trigger (provides more accuracy over single). Similarly, I am open to any high quality recommendations.
- Browned steel furniture (just like in the video above)
- Lock Jim Chambers Colonial Virginia or Round Faced English (leaning towards the round faced English lock, but am not sure if that is most period correct / the better of the two)
- Patch box
- Swivel and button for carry

Would all of this make for a reasonably period correct Early Virginia rifle? I know that the TVM Siler lock needs to be swapped out for an English one, which is why I would choose the Jim Chambers lock. Is there anything you would change here? Maybe there is a high quality swamp barrel out there I can choose to deliver the greatest amount of accuracy. Please do not hesitate to make suggestions as I wish to learn as much as I can.

Thank You

 

[Brokennock]

If there even is such thing as a,

reasonably period correct Early Virginia rifle?

is open for much debate.

I have a TVM Early Virginia rifle, but mine is a smoothbore. I did not order mine straight from TVM but bought it from someone who got it and could not shoot it.
Mine has steel furniture and no patch box. Being far more into historical accuracy now than I was then, if, and it's a big if, I were to order the same gun again I would get a few things different.
#1, brass. I would not get steel/iron again for furniture.
#2, patchbox. I would definitely order it with a patchbox. I miss keeping my field cleaning tools directly with the gun. Now they take up space in my shot pouch.
#3, I would probably want it with a more English style lock. Mine has a large Siler. My take in what I've read and heard has me of the opinion that these rifles would have had more English style influence and probably English import parts, than their German descendant made counterparts in Pennsylvania.

It does have some fit and finish issues and evidence of some "cheats" or "hacks" in the build process. But, given that the buyer does get some options to choose from that one wouldn't get buying a pre-owned rifle built by a more skilled individual builder, they seem a good value. That said. The gun shoots quite well.
Only better value I can think of quickly is one of the new Kibler kits. An Early Colonial would seem to fill your needs nicely.
.45 caliber is a great choice for deer hunting and paper punching, if my state would let me hunt squirrels with it I would own a .45 caliber rifle again. BUT don't be afraid to go bigger if you want to. You can still use 3f powder in a bigger bore, I use it in my .62 and many others use it for everything. Also, you can prime with coarser powder too, 2f will work in the pan.
Go with that swamped barrel. It isn't just a weight savings issue, it is a balance issue which is also a pointability factor and steadiness factor.

 

[Art Caputo]

Over 20 years ago I bought a TVM Virginia Rifle made by Matt Avance. At the time, this particular styling was(and still is) very appealing, and close to my idea of what my favored early colonial 1750-1770 period flintlock rifle would look like. Some aspects like the iron furniture are not necessarily period correct, but at the time my personal preference was more important to me then period correctness. I still own, and regularly shoot this rifle It is very nicely finished, very accurate, problem free, and has given me countless hours of shooting pleasure. I think it is wise that you qualified your criteria with “reasonably” period correct. Due the scarcity of “signed examples” of early Virginia rifles, the purists will certainly make this point to any “period correct” claims. Since the purchase of the TVM I have both built and purchased finished rifles that fall into the Early Colonial designs…..some more representative of the period then others. I agree with Brokennock that my recently built Kibler Colonial is probably much closer to “period correct” then my TVM, with superb components and fitment. Accuracy and reliability between the two are quite comparable. But…….it’s only available in kit form, needing to be finished.
Shown top-bottom: TVM target…It’s one of my best shooters!, TVM Virginia Rifle, Jack Hubbard Virginia Rifle, Kibler Colonial Rifle,

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The first question is how committed are you to "period correctness" and what do you think is "early Virginia"? Rev War period, colonial period, 1783-1800? Iron or steel were not used much for hardware on American-made rifles (except locks, barrels, and triggers) until well after the Rev War. Brass was much more common. Browning of barrels and locks was not common in America until the 1800s. Set triggers were occasionally used but very expensive during the colonial and Rev War periods. A well set up simple trigger can be used just as accurately as a set trigger. Swamped barrels are not more accurate but they handle much better because of better balance. I urge you to expand your research away from the internet and look at some books like George Shumway's "Rifles in Colonial America" and the photo CDs offered by the Kentucky Rifle Foundation. You need to know enough about your topic to wade through the pile of junk posted on the internet and discover the reliable and accurate stuff. Here is a reliable link to information on early Virginia rifles:
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/VirginiaRifle.htm
dave

 

[Grenadier1758]

I do agree with @Brokennock with respect to getting the brass furnishings. Brass is far more common than steel for that rifle. I agree with your other choices except for the additions of the button and sling swivel. These were not common and some real thought should be given before installing the button and swivel on a colonial rifle. A swamped barrel isn't necessarily more accurate (on target) than a straight barrel, but it will handle better so swamped is the way to go as I affirm @dave_person's comments. He's right about the single trigger for a hunting rifle too. Be sure to specify length of pull, drop and any cast off requirements that TVM may be able to add in.

 

[nit wit]

I have a TVM/Matt Avance EV rifle, brass fittings, nice rifle.
Nit Wit

 

[Rod Man]

Thanks for the Video,

Matt is supposed to start on my "Southern" next week. I guess we Arkansan's are like minded because I skipped the patch box and grease hole as well. I didn't want to interrupt the appearance of the wood. The period I am interested in is 1810-1830's. So, I went with browned steel furniture, swamped 42" in .50 and just a touch of carving. They tell you up front it is a 7 to 9 week wait before production. Maybe because of Covid, its more like 9 to 10. So I got around 7 more weeks to wait before I get my grubby paws on my rifle.

RM

 

[olskool]

personally for deer i like the 54 cal. it hits harder and is accurate. this is my TVM southern mountain rifle. 38in swamped rice barrel and Bob roller lock. the 3 shot group was shot off hand at 50yds. with 75gr. of 2f goex ol eynsford and PRB the doe was shot 93 long paces,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

it kicks about like a 20ga. and will shoot flat to 100yds. and i use 2f in the pan and it is lightning fast and deadly on SC deer,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[hanshi]

You sound like you mostly know what you're wanting. I had a very nice TVM .50 X 42" Virginia rifle and man it was accurate. But had to sell it, and a few moderns, several years ago. A friend had one in .54, swamped 42" barrel, Chambers Colonial VA. lock, wood patchbox, top grade stock, set triggers with browned steel and brass furniture. That rifle was a jewel and I drooled over it. He eventually sold it when a guy offered him a near fortune for it - can't blame him I guess. My VA. rifle had the steel left un-browned. Just find out your lop so the butt stock will fit you and call from time to time and help Matt to fully understand any custom touches you want.
Typical group with my VA. rifle shot while sitting on the tailgate of a truck no rest of any kind. I made one of my farthest deer kills with this rifle at just over 100 yards.

 

[Cherrybow]

Thanks for the Video,

Matt is supposed to start on my "Southern" next week. I guess we Arkansan's are like minded because I skipped the patch box and grease hole as well. I didn't want to interrupt the appearance of the wood. The period I am interested in is 1810-1830's. So, I went with browned steel furniture, swamped 42" in .50 and just a touch of carving. They tell you up front it is a 7 to 9 week wait before production. Maybe because of Covid, its more like 9 to 10. So I got around 7 more weeks to wait before I get my grubby paws on my rifle.

RM

You might have heard the time frame wrong. I believe it is more like 7-9 months. I ordered my Natchez Poor boy last December and when I visited them over the 4th they were just starting on their October orders. Mine is expected to hit the bench sometime in September. They do make some beautiful rifles, I have handled many at their shop, and I eagerly wait for mine. My understanding on the Virginia is the flat butt plate lends itself better for the bigger calibers. I have also read the straight barrels are actually better when shooting from a rest but the swamped is much better off hand. swamped is probably more PC though. ( I think)

 

[Rod Man]

You might have heard the time frame wrong. I believe it is more like 7-9 months. I ordered my Natchez Poor boy last December and when I visited them over the 4th they were just starting on their October orders. Mine is expected to hit the bench sometime in September. They do make some beautiful rifles, I have handled many at their shop, and I eagerly wait for mine. My understanding on the Virginia is the flat butt plate lends itself better for the bigger calibers. I have also read the straight barrels are actually better when shooting from a rest but the swamped is much better off hand. swamped is probably more PC though. ( I think)

Yep I wrote it wrong, I meant months. I ordered it in October.

RM.

 

[hanshi]

I've found the straight barrels much better for offhand shooting and swamped barrels much better for hunting and off the bench. Our experience is kinda flip-flopped in that regard, Cherrybow. The very first TVM I bought had me waiting 10 or 11 months. Another time the wait was under 6 months. I guess it just depends on how busy they are. Regardless, they are worth the wait.

 

[Rod Man]

I've found the straight barrels much better for offhand shooting and swamped barrels much better for hunting and off the bench. Our experience is kinda flip-flopped in that regard, Cherrybow. The very first TVM I bought had me waiting 10 or 11 months. Another time the wait was under 6 months. I guess it just depends on how busy they are. Regardless, they are worth the wait.

True Sir, when you drop that deposit your pretty much committed. Thinking the COVID business is why things moved a lil slower which honestly I kinda expected. It’s all good. If patience is a virtue…I am getting schooled at it at this point.

 

[smo]

I’ve never seen a TVM gun that wasn’t accurate in capable hands.

All great advice above..

 

[appalichian hunter]

I am partial too a iron mounted rifle although it seems very few can be documented, it will be your gun and not a light investment that hopefully will give you much enjoyment, with that said do your own thing as I am sure it will be a fine weapon. I have never owned a TVM rifle but know a few who do and they are all happy with them.

 

[smoothshooter]

Hi everyone,

I hope all is well. Apologies as I am brand new to the site, and I hope to give no illusion that I know much about flintlocks. I would like to order my first flintlock and after considering options and price I have decided to choose tennessee valley muzzleloading. I plan to use the gun for deer hunting. My design choices are:

- Early Virginia Rifle (this style has a gentle curving butt plate that I think would make for a great comfortable shooter)
- 45 cal (this can use 3F powder in both the muzzle and the pan and will match the powder of my cap and ball revolvers for convenience. It is also the minimum caliber to deer hunt in Virginia where I am located).
- Walnut stock with a dark brown finish (this video shows the exact look: )
- Swamped 42 inch rifled barrel (I hear this is more accurate in the field). My shots are normally from a crouched position while still hunting at the base of a tree (if this detail matters on a straight vs swamped barrel decision). I am open to any specific high quality barrel recommendations.
- Double set trigger (provides more accuracy over single). Similarly, I am open to any high quality recommendations.
- Browned steel furniture (just like in the video above)
- Lock Jim Chambers Colonial Virginia or Round Faced English (leaning towards the round faced English lock, but am not sure if that is most period correct / the better of the two)
- Patch box
- Swivel and button for carry

Would all of this make for a reasonably period correct Early Virginia rifle? I know that the TVM Siler lock needs to be swapped out for an English one, which is why I would choose the Jim Chambers lock. Is there anything you would change here? Maybe there is a high quality swamp barrel out there I can choose to deliver the greatest amount of accuracy. Please do not hesitate to make suggestions as I wish to learn as much as I can.

Thank You

I am partial too a iron mounted rifle although it seems very few can be documented, it will be your gun and not a light investment that hopefully will give you much enjoyment, with that said do your own thing as I am sure it will be a fine weapon. I have never owned a TVM rifle but know a few who do and they are all happy with them.

I would get the patch box of some kind.
38” swamped barrel if possible. Swamped barrels are the only way to go. How anyone inlets one of those things is beyond me.
.45 caliber is good. Works just fine with 2f or 3f powder in barrel. I use a .433” ball with a thick pafch that holds more lube and loads fairly easy.
Get Chambers White Lightnin’ vent liner.
I personally do not feel the need for set triggers any more.
Sling attachments are good.
Get muzzle crowned at least slightly.

 

[appalichian hunter]

For sure on the patch box, and yes I know the 45 has a good following with saying that I woulsd at least go to a 50 cal. I like the bigger bore rifles and for me a 50 is still small.

 

[user 34300]

Get detailed plans. Go at least 50 cal, for deer and handling. 45 cal will be a heavy rifle and marginal power for deer. The ball is only 127 grains. Most would not consider a 38 special to be a deer cartridge yet, the energies are similar.

In that genera, IF you never built a rifle I highly suggest the Kibler Colonial. It will teach you what a nice rifle is supposed to be. Often, the early builds are way to chunkie. I'd get the 54 caliber, or even 58. As long as you shoot it well, you can't have too much power. I feel an obligation for a clean kill.

 

[Rod Man]

Uh fellas, this was a year ago... I think he may have it by now... Maybe.

RM

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Nice thread resurrection. I’m thinking the gun has already been ordered by now. When it comes in, I’d really like to see an image.

My thoughts on the subject are that Barrel Length and Calibre need to both be considered as a set. A lot of people post about calibre and barrels, and I wonder if they’ve ever actually held the gun they are spouting off about…much less carried one into the field for any length of time on a hunt or a steady trekk.

A 13/16 ths, 42” barrel in .45 calibre is a very sweet rifle to carry into the woods. I do not find this barrel/calibre combination to be very barrel heavy at all. The balance of a strait barreled .45 at 42” isn’t perfect, but it’s very doable. Honestly, heavy buttstock of the early Virginia Rifle would probably be what’s needed to make it perfectly balanced. The .45 is plenty powerful to take medium sized big game, such as deer and antelope. A solid hit with a PRB or conical will put a deer down.

Do this gun with a .40 calibre, and you have a bit more weight, but a sweet shooting rifle. The heavy buttstock of the early Virginia Stock is going to give you an almost perfectly balanced rifle. If I had a big game rifle already and was looking for a sweet everyday shooter…this would be it.

Under .40 calibre, and the 42” 13/16 ths barrel gets barrel heavy. Though my .32 calibre is still very fun to take into the woods, I’ll find a rest when taking shots.

A 15/16ths barrel starts to get barrel heavy, no matter the calibre, in a 42” length.

At this point I’d choose a .54 calibre barrel. The big .54 will be a tad lighter than the 50 calibre and coupled with the heavier early Virginia Buttstock, you’re going to have a large calibre much better balanced rifle, making for an easier field carry. It will be a stout rifle, coming in at about 9 1/2 or maybe even 10 lbs.

For myself, the .54 calibre would be best as a 36” barreled rifle. Bit heavy, very manageable and awesome elk medicine.

And in .40 calibre, with a 36” barrel, you’ll probably find the gun as being your personal favorite.

Above is my early Virginia.

I put a 20 gauge smoothbore, with set triggers. I call it my American Fowler.

The barrel is a bit heavier profiled than normal smoothbore barrels, so heavy powder charges behind a lead round ball are expected. The set triggers allow me to throw a chunk of lead very accurately out to 80 yrds…though my eyes have aged since I had this gun made…hunting shots, these days, are limited to a moderate 50 yrds, but it’s nice to know I can reach if needed. This gun is a hunting sluggster.