Please help me identify this potential 1600s flintlock pistol

[Benjamin_Martin]

Hey guys, I recently stumbled upon an intriguing flintlock pistol that looks like it might be from the late 1600s. It appears to be a .60 cal. and has an 11 1/2” barrel.

Any help will be greatly appreciated, as always thank y’all!

 

[DrLaw]

Search engines are your friends, and this is not from the 1600's.

The Doc is out now.

 

[Benjamin_Martin]

Search engines are your friends, and this is not from the 1600's.

The Doc is out now.

I wasn’t able to find any guns with a similar handle online with the exception of a mid 18th century dueling pistol. Do you have any sources that you’ve used you could recommend?

 

[DrLaw]

I wasn’t able to find any guns with a similar handle online with the exception of a mid 18th century dueling pistol. Do you have any sources that you’ve used you could recommend?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19565

First, flintlocks were not really readily available in the 1600's. Secondly, what does that say on the trigger guard? "Buccaneer"?
The crude inletting, the Cyrillic-style 'engraving'. That is some type of proof mark on the barrel, which was not on any guns before the 1800's.

This thing is screaming 'tourist' gun from somewhere in the middle east.

The Doc is out now.

 

[Benjamin_Martin]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19565

First, flintlocks were not really readily available in the 1600's. Secondly, what does that say on the trigger guard? "Buccaneer"?
The crude inletting, the Cyrillic-style 'engraving'. That is some type of proof mark on the barrel, which was not on any guns before the 1800's.

This thing is screaming 'tourist' gun from somewhere in the middle east.

The Doc is out now.

I am confused as to what you are talking about when you say that flintlocks were not readily available in the 1600s? The first true "flintlock" came about in France in the 1630s and by the end of the 1600s every major power had it standardized throughout their militaries and most people would have owned a flintlock if they bought a newer gun.

I am not sure exactly what it says on the trigger guard as it is hard to read, but it doesn't say "Buccaneer" as far as I can tell.

I am also confused when you state that barrel proof marks were not on guns before the 1800s? I have personally seen many examples of muskets from the American Revolutionary period that have proof marks on the barrel, especially when they were British Brown Besses.

I like the article you posted and am not trying to be argumentative as my main goal is to find out the history of this pistol, but I am just a little confused as to how you came to some of your above statements.

 

[SDSmlf]

I am not an expert on these types of guns, but if I came across this gun, my ‘tourist gun’ radar would be pinging, though I could be wrong. Just ask my bride. I just don’t see the fine detail that I expect to see on period guns in your photographs of this example. The rougher elements on you gun appear to have been manufactured, rather than coming about from honest natural handling and wear. Hopefully, others more knowledgeable types will be along with better insight soon. In the meantime, you may want to research Khyber Pass guns and other similar variants. At the worst, you have a neat wall hanger that plenty of folks would want to own for their man cave wall.

 

[DrLaw]

Here's the thing, I am 68, before computers, I read books, lots of books. I am no dummy and I have dealt with people who have been scammed and the scammers who scam them. I am also not going to debate back and forth about having given you free advice from my experience and a website that I found after 15 seconds of a Google Search.

I'm out.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Ben

Maybe I can help. The pistol is commonly referred to by "Eastern" collectors as an Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. And very typical of the style. It appears genuine and not a tourist item. And in decent condition. It was probably assembled by one of the many small gun shops in the Balkans. Probably early to mid 1800's. The flintlock was still in common use in this part of the World up to at least the Third Quarter of the 1800's. They were extremely popular and made by the thousands. Many original examples are still available today. Most of the locks, barrels, and hardware were imported from Europe and assembled locally.
A couple of questions for you: 1) Do you have possession of this pistol to take a couple more photos ? 2) Does the wood ramrod travel the length equal to the barrel length ? Or does it stop short, just behind the rear pipe ? This might give me some more information.

Rick

 

[Benjamin_Martin]

Hi Ben

Maybe I can help. The pistol is commonly referred to by "Eastern" collectors as an Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. And very typical of the style. It appears genuine and not a tourist item. And in decent condition. It was probably assembled by one of the many small gun shops in the Balkans. Probably early to mid 1800's. The flintlock was still in common use in this part of the World up to at least the Third Quarter of the 1800's. They were extremely popular and made by the thousands. Many original examples are still available today. Most of the locks, barrels, and hardware were imported from Europe and assembled locally.
A couple of questions for you: 1) Do you have possession of this pistol to take a couple more photos ? 2) Does the wood ramrod travel the length equal to the barrel length ? Or does it stop short, just behind the rear pipe ? This might give me some more information.

Rick

Hi Rick, unfortunately I do not have the gun in my possession as I was just in the market for a cool flintlock pistol to add to my collection of long guns, so I cannot assess it firsthand. I can reach out to the seller though and ask those questions.

 

[rickystl]

At least the pistol has been ID'ed as genuine. A photo of the front part of the barrel and stock as well as the pan and vent relationship would be useful. A couple reasons I'm asking: 1) I notice the trigger guard is set with screws versus simply nailed to the the stock which was much more common. 2) The ramrod "appears" to be full length (?) If so, that is two clues that the pistol was possibly made in Europe (probably Italy) entirely, and then exported for sale to the local region. This was also widely done.

Rick

 

[PathfinderNC]

First thing I notice was the thickness of that lock plate- never saw one that thick.
Second thing is that the barrel tang appears welded or soldered to the back of the barrel. Unless it was a repair job, I can’t figure that one out. The side plate is atrocious.
The gun certainly looks old in some aspects, from the photos posted, but since you don’t own the gun and have no more photos to go by, it’s kind of an exercise in conjecture, isn’t it?

 

[Loyer]

Looks very much like a tourist gun I bought a while ago. The best way to know for certain is to remove the lockplate and see if the wood under the lockplate shows "aged" or "fresh new-cut" wood.

 

[Benjamin_Martin]

Looks very much like a tourist gun I bought a while ago. The best way to know for certain is to remove the lockplate and see if the wood under the lockplate shows "aged" or "fresh new-cut" wood.

That is good to know, I can look into that

 

[Clark Badgett]

Here's the thing, I am 68, before computers, I read books, lots of books. I am no dummy and I have dealt with people who have been scammed and the scammers who scam them. I am also not going to debate back and forth about having given you free advice from my experience and a website that I found after 15 seconds of a Google Search.

I'm out.

Well, I can assure you that barrels were being proofed and marked well before 1800. I would like to know the source for your post 1800 statement.

 

[dracer]

at the worst it is a interesting conversational piece

 

[Relic shooter]

This pistol speaks Arabic

 

[DrLaw]

Well, I can assure you that barrels were being proofed and marked well before 1800. I would like to know the source for your post 1800 statement.

https://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

 

[Clark Badgett]

https://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

I thought you read books, not the errorwebz. An NRA pdf that shows modern proofs is not evidence. Hint: it even shows an English proof that dismisses your claim.
The French have been proof marking barrels since at least the late 1600s, which is evident from many pictures in Kevin Gladysz’s ‘The French Trade Gun in North America.’
The English have been doing so from at least the early 1700s from photographic evidence of just about every book published on the subject of English martial and trade arms.
The Spanish, likewise.
Sad part of this discussion is that some of this published knowledge has been available for well over 30 years.

 

[PathfinderNC]

I thought you read books, not the errorwebz. An NRA pdf that shows modern proofs is not evidence. Hint: it even shows an English proof that dismisses your claim.
The French have been proof marking barrels since the late 1600s, which is evident from many pictures in Kevin Gladysz’s ‘The French Trade Gun in North America.’
The English have been doing so from at least the early 1700s from photographic evidence of just about every book published on the subject of English martial and trade arms.
The Spanish, likewise.
Sad part of this discussion is that some of this published knowledge has been available for well over 30 years.

Well , the good DrLaw did “give free advice from his experience”.

 

[Relic shooter]

This pistol speaks Arabic

Error on my part on stating the nationality of this pistol