Please offer opinion on new rifle

[LongRifleVaB]

I am hopeless

I have saved up the bucks and decided to order a TVM Southern Rifle, in steel, with patchbox.

When I ordered it I spoke to Toni. She is great, and offerred great insight. However, she got me to thinking...

Now I am considering altering my order, and the reason I am posting here will be self evident when you read the rest of this.

I am considering changing to either a Early Virginia Rifle with wooden patch box, OR the Early Lancaster with brass patch box

I any of these cases, I am ordering the super premium wood to get lots of striping.

Seriously... what a choice... Southern Rifle, Va Rifle, or Lancaster. I don't think it gets more non-commital than that.

My goal?

To have a nice, but unusual (something you don't see at the range everyday), good shooter that represents a rifle that could have been used in the Revolution.

I even considered the Lancaster with an OHIO patchbox, because the example in the book is from a rifle from Canton Ohio, which is very near where I grew up.

Please, pictures and comments greatly desired.

 

[tg]

If you want a rev war gun forget the southern Mt.
either of the other two would work, a swamped barrel would be the style of the time. Chambers has some good pics of correct Rev war period guns.
TVM makes a good gun, I have not yet seen what makes their early virginia gun differ much from their early lancater.

 

[LRB]

TG, you are beyond me in knowledge of these things, but from studying on the two, I can find little difference between Lancaster architecture, and Virginia architecture. The differences I see mainly concern the hardware, and the Virginias may be heavier in the wrist area. Of course the carving and locks are distinctively different, and the Virginias seem to have more English, and folksy influence, but the profiles seem very close. What are your observations on this?

 

[J.D.]

IMHO, the question you need to answer is what time period and location is your historic persona from?

That will dictate what style of rifle you should choose.

For a Rev War period, I prefer the Va rifles...but I like Va rifles.

If you want something unusual, IMHO, TVA, TVM, or one of the semi custom manufacturers isn't the way to go.

I can spot one of their rifles across a football field.

Check with one of the custom builders on this forum. Most of their work is superlative, and even their mediocre work is darn good. And, they can make anything you might want.

I think Mr. Brooks has a new kit that might be what you are looking for. There aren't many Klette rifles out there.

IF you don't want to tackle the kit, Mike can finish it for you either plain or fancy.
[url] http://www.fowlingguns.com/klettekit.html[/url]

 

[Mike Brooks]

I'd get a swamped barrel or I'd just forget the whole thing.

 

[Elnathan]

Either the Early Virginia or the Early Lancaster would be right for the Revolutionary period, but no earlier, despite what they say about the Virginia rifle. Mountain rifles are later, as has been noted.

The pictures on their website are lousy, frankly, and don't give me much to go on, but it does look like the Virginia rifle with a wooden patchbox might be close to the Alexander rifle pictured in Shumway, though it is similar to nothing else from that area and time-frame that I can see. If I had to choose beteen the two based on those pictures I would probably go for the Virginia rifle, as Lancasters are so ubiquitous these days, and because I like wooden patchboxes. I also like the architecture a bit more. It is your call, though.

Having said all that, from the website it looks like a swamped barrel is not an option. I hate to say this, but without a swamped barrel the architecture is going to be wrong for an early rifle - Early rifles need to have breeches 1" or thicker (there are a few with breeches in the 1.5" range, though the average is probably around 1-3/32") - and a swamped barrel handles better for a hunting or general purpose rifle. Spectacularly better, in my not-really-humble opinion.
If you can afford super premium wood, you can afford a swamped barrel, and the money would be better spent on the barrel. You will get a rifle that is actually correct for the Revolutionary period instead of an approximation, and it will handle better too.

my 2 cents worth...

 

[Capt. Jas.]

JD,
I dont think he has or wants a personna. He just wants to shoot at the range.

You just need to pick the one you want out the the Lancaster of VA.

Man I wish this site would let you see the previous posts while you are typing a reply!

 

[tg]

"What are your observations on this? "

That is what my thoughts are I just am not seeing this difference in the guns made by TVM, the one I held at a gun show had Germanic furniture/Siler lock and was little different than many Penn. rifles,I just don't get how they come up with this being a "Virginia" gun, maybe the one I saw was an exception.

 

[Elnathan]

Jas, hit the "Click to Review other posts in this topic" link right above the "Preview" and "Add Post" buttons.

 

[Elnathan]

"What are your observations on this? "

That is what my thoughts are I just am not seeing this difference in the guns made by TVM, the one I held at a gun show had Germanic furniture/Siler lock and was little different than many Penn. rifles,I just don't get how they come up with this being a "Virginia" gun, maybe the one I saw was an exception.

A lot of the 1770s and later VA rifles made in the Shenandoah valley are rather Germanic in style. The differences are subtle, and I won't pretend to understand or explain them. Rifles that are confirmed southern seem to be pretty rare, and run the gamute of styles - compare the Faber rifle, the Klette rifle, the Adam Haymaker rifle, the John Thomas rifle, and the Shenandoah sequence in Shumway, all of which I believe are known to be Southern with fair certainty, and all very different. I believe the Double Box Rifle shown on Mel Hankla's site is also confirmed Virginian, and is said to be by the same hand as RCA 138. If so, that would demonstrate that that particular smith was more innovative than the average PA smith, which probably holds true for Southern smiths in general and helps account for the variety in styles.

 

[tg]

I understand the variations and the lack of early guns from Virginia, I guess I was comparing this gun to what many have come to consider the "standard" interpretation such as Chambers puts out for a pre rev war or early Virginia, this somewhat seperates it from most of the Penn guns, and is obviously differentwith the English influence, not saying that all Virginia guns should be English, but in the early guns it does make them stand out from the typical Penn. guns.Don't mean to steal the thread and take it in a different direction, just have always been curious what they drew from to make theirs (TVM) an early Virginia.

 

[LongRifleVaB]

You guys have no idea how helpful you have been.

I am kind of a novice collector and Cowboy action shooter, but I have nothing of the Revolutionary war period

I also live in the Norfolk area of Virginia so this whole thing started after talking to Toni and hearing about the Va Rifle.

I will give her a call tomorrow and ask about a swamped barrel for the Va rifle.

I was thinking that since the Va Rifles were traditionally very dark stained (at least I think they were), then I could safely use a lesser grade wood and do some tradeoff there with the swamped barrel. If that is an option

As for building it myself. I have built several CVA style kits, but that is it. Drilling and tapping scare me to death.

I LOVE the Jim Chambers SMOOTH RIFLE. How I would like one of those with a 50 cal rifled barrel. But drilling and tapping a touch hole... probably a non-starter for me.

I did chat with Toni and she said that Matt would build a Jim Chambers kit for me, but we did not talk about price at that time.

Maybe I can save up the bucks and do that next year, or maybe, I can just keep active on this forum and learn more and try it myself.

Thanks again, the pictures that were posted to this thread were great to see, any others would also be appreciated...

 

[Stumpkiller]

If you're looking for a mid 1770's piece you can scratch the Ohio stylings. The "uncivilized" Northwest Territory started just along the Western shore of that river back then. :wink:

A simple Lancaster or the Early Virginia in a meaty caliber (.54 or larger). Swamped barrel (at the expense of AAA+ wood).

Man I wish this site would let you see the previous posts while you are typing a reply!

Capt Jas - click on "Click to Review other posts in this topic" below the text box when you reply.
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum...id/214505/pid/496552/post/496552/#496552[/url]

 

[Dave K]

Don't rule out no patch box or a well executed wooden patch box. Really highly figured wood is a shame to hide behind brass patch box. Let the beautiful wood show! Or pick a stock that doesn't have that kind of figure in the butt and use a nice brass patch box to highlight the gun. JMHO of course. The nice wide butts of Revolution period guns are great for big bore hunting guns. Those large butts really help distribute the recoil.

 

[Elnathan]

Longrifle,
the Chambers Smoothrifle is a lovely gun. I got a chance to look at and handle one fitted with a rifle-type trigger guard when I was over at Jim's to get a lock, and I liked it a lot better than the standard model. If you can't get a swamped barrel from TVM, can I suggest you get a Chambers? Especially if it is the one you really want.

I don't know how suitable the smoothrifle would be for a beginner, but it would be possible to get someone to assemble it "in-the-white" if you don't feel up to putting it together yourself. I suspect that it would not be too hard to find someone willing to install a vent liner if that is the only thing that worries you. Since you have already talked with TVM about assembling a Chambers, you might ask them if they would be willing to just install the barrel, lock and touchhole liner, and leave the rest to you.

Full disclosure: Jim is a friend of mine, and he coached me through building my first rifle, so I am biased in favor of him and his products. I think you'll find, however, that there are plenty of others who will agree that Jim's products, locks and kits, are among the best available and well worth the extra cost. In any case, it might be worth your time to talk to Jim before making a final decision. Don't wish to knock the good folks at TVM, of course, but don't limit yourself unnecessarily.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Jas, hit the "Click to Review other posts in this topic" link right above the "Preview" and "Add Post" buttons.

Thanks Elnathan!!!! Found it! I have never had to click anything on any of the other boards I visit so this was a new one for me. thanks for the help.

 

[LongRifleVaB]

One comment that confused me now that I have thought about all the responses and I have had a cup of coffee this AM was the comment regarding the Southern Rifle and not Revolution appropriate.

What about a Tennessee rifle? I think I understand the Southern Mountain effective dates, but doesn't the Tennessee rifle pre-date the revolution? I have searched on the internet and having a hard time finding this answer.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Tenn. and Southern Mt. rifles are interchangeable terms for the same gun. 1790 is about as early as you're going to go with any gun built west of the Appalachia Mts. Most of them are much later than that, having been built even past 1900 with little change.

 

[LongRifleVaB]

Wow... that makes sense given what the area was like at the time.

Thanks for the quick response

 

[PvtC]

IMHO, having Matt assemble a Chambers smooth rifle with a wood box is a good idea. Don't brown the barrel or lock. Let them develop a natural patina.