poor accuracy with T/C hawken

[Majorsideburns]

Hey all, I have a .50 cal Thompson Center Hawken that was my first muzzleloader and it shoots beautifully. I recently acquired a second-hand .45 cal Thompson Center Hawken that can't seem to hold a group! I figured I would come here to you guys for troubleshooting. I have tried loads from 40 grains to 70 grains of 2F Goex, using Speer .440 round ball and .010 wonderlubed patches. There is good resistance when starting them and seating them in the bore. At 50 yards it patterns like a shotgun and seems to place shots at random all over the paper, maybe spreading 16" or more. The rifling and crown look fine, and the sights are tight. Should I try thicker patches? One thing I am wondering is can the barrel wedge have any effect? I notice on this Hawken the barrel wedge pin fits all the way in and is much easier to remove than on my .50, could a loose pin cause these issues? Or should I take a look at something else? Thanks for any insight you all can provide, I really love these Hawkens, especially their set trigger!

 

[Griz44Mag]

Hey all, I have a .50 cal Thompson Center Hawken that was my first muzzleloader and it shoots beautifully. I recently acquired a second-hand .45 cal Thompson Center Hawken that can't seem to hold a group! I figured I would come here to you guys for troubleshooting. I have tried loads from 40 grains to 70 grains of 2F Goex, using Speer .440 round ball and .010 wonderlubed patches. There is good resistance when starting them and seating them in the bore. At 50 yards it patterns like a shotgun and seems to place shots at random all over the paper, maybe spreading 16" or more. The rifling and crown look fine, and the sights are tight. Should I try thicker patches? One thing I am wondering is can the barrel wedge have any effect? I notice on this Hawken the barrel wedge pin fits all the way in and is much easier to remove than on my .50, could a loose pin cause these issues? Or should I take a look at something else? Thanks for any insight you all can provide, I really love these Hawkens, especially their set trigger!

There are those here that will probably chastise you for using pre-lubed patches, but I use them and don't have any issues. A barrel rattling around can certainly cause inconsistent patterns, and maybe that 45 just doesn't like roundball. A lot of possibilities there with the information you have. I have found my Hawken likes thicker patches (a 50 cal). My buddies rifle that is an identical twin to mine, likes thinner patches and a bit slower velocty. Just keep playing around with all the variables, I bet you find the one she likes best.

 

[mooman76]

Look at your fired patches to see how they held up As bad as you are shooting, my guess is you'll find that the patches are destroyed. Fired patches tell you allot about your gun/load.

 

[azmntman]

2nd guess for a patch issue. I would shoot a thicker patch myself and cut at muzzle and use a good well known lube (hoppes Blk Powder Solvent and Patch Lubricant is hard to beat (or use the Dutch system).

HOWEVER I have a .36 CVA bobcat that does the same dang thing and after 15 yrs of different powder charges, caps, patches, lube and chewing tobacco I am saving to get it "hoyterized" into a nice .38 cal (or .40 :hmm: )

 

[torpedo]

I tried .010 patches in my .54 Hawken and was lucky to even punch the target anywhere. With the .015 patch I group in 2 to 3 inch groups at 75 yards, that being my limit when hunting. But very hard to start!

 

[mamero]

Here is my post from another similar tread

So here is the long in the making range report. The session started out with me testing (off course starting with a squeaky-clean barrel) my hunting lube. I use a mix of deer tallow, beeswax and olive oil. My patching was (and is for the rest of the range report) .018’’ pillow ticking cut at the muzzle, 65 grains of Goex FFFG and CC#11 mag percussion caps shooting this time pre-weighted .440 Hornady balls.
All groups were shot from the bench at 50 yards

Nothing to brag about a little over 2’’ groups at 50yards. That still makes for a decent hunting accuracy. It’s the first shot that counts and at this time that was off by an inch to the left. Pretty happy with that.
That out of the way I decided to give a patching lubed with 7:1 ratio of water to cutting oil a try.I did not precut any patches so this would have to be a cut at the muzzle job as well. I let go of 3 rounds and went down range to check. Best so far I have ever fired out of muzzleloader or anything else shod with open sights.

At this point I wrote that off to pure luck and mumbled to myself how I will probably never be able to do that again. I figured I was at the range and wind was almost nonexistent and I figured I give it another shot, or three for that matter.

WOW I thought to myself, quite a milestone in my muzzleloader journey. Immediate brag photo sent to my brother and he replied “ 25 Yards ?” Yeah, replying to that text felt good.
Just to make sure I let another three shots rip and I got this.

I then preceded to shoot 50 Yards off hand (thought I let rip 12 rounds ended up being 13)and got this down range.

I forgot to mention I did wipe with two patches up and down motion and this was done between every shot. Patches are soaked with 50/50 Alcohol and Murphy’s Oil Soap mix. I use this mixture to clean at the end of the session. This way I can shoot all day long now and maintain accuracy. If do not wipe I can see the load starting to creep up slowly (the ramrod does not go down as far in every successive shot) and the accuracy will go by the wayside.
In conclusion there is a lot to be said about 1:48 rate of twist and factory TC barrel. It’s a shame they do not make them anymore.

Now I was left wondering if my new Hoyt barrel will be able to do the same, bar has definitely risen a few notches.

 

[mamero]

My brother bought identical barrel and was able to replicate the same results (acctualy little tighter groups to be honest) with this same load. Not saying it will be 100% the case with you but if you do exactly the same you will have very good foundation to work with. TC 45 barrels are extremely accurate in my opinion.

 

[morehops]

I've had my T/C .50 since the 70's. Great accurate rifle and very well made. Shoots Maxi's very well so I never had reason to switch. I liked the idea that shooting was more straight forward without trying different balls and patches. what you're using right now is certainly working for deer and large varmint accuracy. No need for you to switch either.
However, if you get the opportunity, you might try some .45 maxis. Not as common as .50's but I imagine someone still offers them. They offer heckuva wallop down range.

 

[Majorsideburns]

Thanks guys those are some great tips. I will definitely try to find my spent patches the next time I go, I didn't even think to check those. They are the same patches I used with great accuracy for my .50 cal Hawken so I didn't even think they could be suspect, but maybe with the higher velocity of the .45 they are tearing up or perhaps a bit too thin. I really appreciate that load suggestion as well, I have some 3F powder that I normally just use in my cap and ball revolvers but will try that suggested 65 grains of 3F load with a thicker patch! I can't wait to get back out and test it out, I love black powder shooting!

 

[Majorsideburns]

That is some impressive shooting Muamero, look at that 3 hole touching clover leaf!

 

[mamero]

Well thank you sir! Pleas do report back and tell us how you are doing.

 

[Dr5x]

If I may butt in, you might try a 445 ball and minimize the amount of goo in the lubrication.. and maybe a slightly thicker patch.

I hate to suggest this but with all second hand guns, run a tightly patched jag all the way down to make sure there are no wide spots caused by an earlier owner not seating the ball properly before firing,
People unknowingly ruin a rifle and then never do well with them and then sell them.

{eople should never buy a previously used rifle without first running that test

I began life with a T/C Hawken, Kit built reifle and you should be able to get nickel sized groups out of them
The Hornady balls are usually off weight and will give you flyers but not all the wildness you describe.

Dutch

 

[Dr5x]

A further thought,
As far as the pin holding the barrel in place, Try turning it over. They are often bent a little and nebies turn them over for easier insertion resulting in a loose fit.

The word "easy" has caused more trouble than one would imagine.

Dutch

Tell me if you found any wide spots in the barrel. They won't shown the outside I was surprised to learn.

Dutch

 

[Dr5x]

I went to some lengths in Glass Bedding: both my Hawken rifles. I noticed NO effect, good or bad to the accuracy of either rifle.
I believe the purpose of Glass Bedding is to reduce the effect of the harmonics that occur when the rifle is fired.

Has anyoun gone through that effort and noticed a change in his rifle's accuracy?

I think it gave me that good feeling that girls have when they wear good looking lingerie that noone can see.
It wasn't that hard to do but the possibilities of screwing things up are infinite.

Enquiring minds etc”¦


Dutch

 

[Dr5x]

AZMTNMAN,
I want to hank you for your many recommendations but I have to say that you show little or no use of my Systems or methods..
Like Aduii, you have developed your own System that works well for you and you should be proud of it

Mentioning my System, Good or Bad, along with your well thought out recommendations migh cause some confusion of which we have too much already.

Keep up the good work. My experience with Mr. Hoyt was excellent but don;t pick a caliber that will hard to find supplies for.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Dr5x]

Mr. Hoyt or Houyte or Fairfild, Pennsylvania does excellent work in the care and feeding of injured rifle barrels. Theremust be others but I have never heard of them. He, in my experience is quick to perform requested work and in my experience quite reasonable in his charges
< I can't recommend him high enough to folks whowhas the sadness of blown rifle barrel.

Dutch Schoultz

He is often mentioned indirectly but never explained to later joined members of the Forum.

Fairfield is just off the grounds of theGettysburg event and is about half the size of a Walmart so any letter to Mr. Hoyt in Fairfield should reach him.

Dutch

 

[Tom Compton]

Good morning. I like to try the easiest fix first, just an old man’s way. You obviously bought a used TC Hawken as they sadly are no longer made. Install a new nipple if not already done and let us know if there is any improvement.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I suggest trying .445" balls and ticking for patch. Many lubes to choose from. And, do test the bore to determine the twist. Some TCs will only handle bullets/maxis well. OTOH, my early TC with very shallow rifling required a very thin patch. I used airplane clothe but don't know if that is even available anymore.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Changing the nipple is a good idea.

Have you taken a look at the bore for signs of pitting? Leading from too much shooting of conicals? A swipe or two of a copper "Chore Boy" scouring pad and lead remover is likely in order.

Are the sights well set in their dovetails? Is the adjustable rear sight solid in the mount?

 

[azmntman]

AZMTNMAN,
I want to hank you for your many recommendations but I have to say that you show little or no use of my Systems or methods..
Like Aduii, you have developed your own System that works well for you and you should be proud of it

Mentioning my System, Good or Bad, along with your well thought out recommendations migh cause some confusion of which we have too much already.

Keep up the good work. My experience with Mr. Hoyt was excellent but don;t pick a caliber that will hard to find supplies for.

Dutch Schoultz

Dutch.....ya gotta understand I have like 30 rifles. I have had time to get yer system down on only ONE. Its my best shooter, a CVA hawkin .50 that will do 2" groups all day at 90 yds with your system. It loves 7-1 .490 and "the blue ticking" (I have several colors marked with a few sharpies).

Now since two seasons ago that there "dutched" gun on the last day of deer season developed a 55lb trigger pull and I am not a gunsmith and have not had time to mess with it. I did reach out to a member here but no interest in a look see/repair for $$.

Sooooo I have used yer system and cut my gripos from 3" to a two inch for sure at 90 yds and can (and do) attest to the worthiness of said system. PLEASE understand that as the sole bread winner and a small (one man) business owner I have had no time to take the next rifle out for the 3-4 trips necessary to really put you system to use. I have had time to "sneak away" and shoot and when I do I regress to what worked for me best prior to your system. I WILL GET MORE DONE THIS SPRING. I am torn between a .54 and a .58 for my upcoming cow hunt so will attempt to "Dutchize" one of each and hunt with the best grouper.

Now as was for the .36 that will NOT shoot a group no matter what. That has been screwed with with my own and others proven methods and was the next in line with your methods and did not shoot with 4-1, 5-1, 6-1, 7- 8- or 9-1. It will not shoot with .350. It will not shoot with a conical. It will not shoot with a wad over powder and a conical. It will not shoot with Redman, Coppenhagen, Grizzly or Skoal. It wont shoot with red blue or yellow ticking, thick or thin, loose or tight. It will not shoot. Have had it 15 years and have given up. Its a .38 or .40 real soon. Thats OK though cuz I have to have a .36 and then can get a .36 and will have one more rifle.

I do admit, reluctantly, that at this time in my life I have entirely too many rifles :slap: . I need to cull down to one of each caliber and add a smoothie.

So dont think I dont use your system, I did, it worked, I will again. However if I can go shoot with the "old way" or stay home cuz I dont have the time to work up another rifle with the system I'm going shooting.

Now.....as I have suggested before.....GO PINCH A NURSE! :haha: