Possible British flintlock

[Cameron Lawson]

Belonged to late grandfather. Looking for info on company and age if possible. Only marking are "574"

 

[okawbow]

Looks Dutch to me.

 

[Zonie]

The British have been proof testing all of the guns made there since 1637. If it were British, it should have a proof mark stamped on the barrel.

 

[TFoley]

It's a wall-hanger, NOT for shooting. The level of 'craftsmanship' is appalling. I advise the OP to take a look at a real British flintlock pistol from around the late 1700's for comparison.

https://ancestryguns.com/shop/british-antique-light-dragoon-flintlock-pistol-made-in-the-late-1700s/

The numbers chiselled on the tang are of a style found in the late-16th/mid-17th C.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
There is nothing British about it. I suggest it is Dutch or something cobbled together using assorted parts. The number is not related to any military unit. It might be some sort of ad hoc serial number. The stock shape is not typical of pistols from the period of the hardware, which is likely early 18th century. The forward ramrod pipe does not match the rear pipe and the decorative band at the muzzle is very odd. The sear screw is an odd arrangement. Normally, it threads from the inside. I wonder if it wasn't something put together during the 19th century as a wall decoration.

dave

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I wonder if it wasn't something put together during the 19th century as a wall decoration.

The Middle East was famous for selling to tourists old guns. A lot of "Jezail guns" and other flintlocks came out of African and the Middle East in the 1920's, as wall hangers, with the tourists thinking they were "originals".

LD

 

[Erzulis boat]

This is a photo of something very similar, albeit "higher" quality from India. Your example would fall into this category in my not so expert opinion.

 

[Erzulis boat]

Another shot-

 

[TFoley]

View attachment 21203This is a photo of something very similar, albeit "higher" quality from India. Your example would fall into this category in my not so expert opinion.

An effort at replicating the rampant lion emblem of the Honourable East India Company can be seen here. As well as some gobbledegook lettering.

 

[fossilledges]

So, just a question regarding the "export to Europe" eastern and Indian flintlocks discussed--I have seen some that could only be wall hangers. Others appear to have significant legitimate wear. How common is it to find functional examples?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

How common is it to find functional examples?

Um..., I'm not sure the legitimate wear = functional example. They cobble together stuff for sale, and while the barrel might have once been from a tradegun, and the lock may have once also been so..., they may have never functioned together. Since the seller is vending something for wall display they felt "no harm no foul" in putting together pieces from once useful guns with non gun parts to create a "gun". Actual guns are a sparse commodity in a lot of places and likely the parts came off what is no longer repairable and workable.

LD

 

[fossilledges]

Thank you, yes agreed. They were probably often sourcing from non-working parts to cobble pieces together because that was what was available. I am however fascinated with pistols pieced together and re-worked to make a functional gun with no intent to deceive. Let me posit a slightly different later example where we can safely trace the history. I have a Colt 1862 Police Conversion and an 1860 Navy Conversion with a Colt letter, so at least there is provenance on that one. The 1860 is in poor condition with no remaining finish but all matching numbers. It's listed as an armory conversion in the late 97,000 range. Of course the Colt archivists stated the usual regarding the missing fire records but one thing always stuck out to me. After stating that most of these Colts were decommissioned they went to the American Southwest. But mine has an added backstrap and a different hand-made ejector rod and I was told they were added later in a "frontier gunsmithing" attempt to keep the weapon going. My 1860 is charitably a "well patinated" Colt but it is functional and can still fire light BP .38 loads for demonstration purposes. It's not worth a lot, considering how common they were, but I find the history interesting. So...I choose to believe that with all of the British, Dutch, French, German etcetera dragoons and otherwise, human nature and necessity led people to piece them together to keep them going. While they may not be worth anything at auction, those pistols may have led very interesting lives. One of the things I love about this forum is the level of expertise and experience the members like yourself bring to the table. There are a myriad of variables to consider of course but I am intrigued with the sleuthing involved with aesthetics, provenance, and period gunsmithing. I am but a humble student and I defer to the experts but I find the real or fake discussions superb reading. I feel I learn something new every day. --Dr. Paul