Potential Newbie Questions

[bwayne65]

Just found this forum and hoping the experts here can provide me with some insight

To date I've mostly been interested in Military C&R firearms (Garands, Mauser, etc) but recently I had an opportunity to shoot a black powder rifle at my range. Since then I cannot shake the thought of acquiring a BP firearm.

Due to my interest in military history, I'm really only interested in smoothbore musket type firearms but have the following questions:
1. Would I be crazy to go the matchlock route as my first BP firearm? Honestly, the simplicity and historical aspect of it greatly interests me but wonder if I'm just asking for "trouble". If not a matchlock then I'd go for flintlock (percussion just doesn't excite me).
2. I do not think I could spend $1K+ for a BP firearm. I've seen websites with the cheaper ($600 to $750) rifles that I believe are Indian made - for an occasional shooter, are they ok?
3. Due to the monetary concerns in #2, would I be crazy to just get a pistol (larger horse pistol)to quench my BP curiosity?
4. How hard is it to clean and take care of a BP firearm? For example do you have to fully remove the barrel and lock from the firearm for a thorough cleaning after each time at the range?

Sorry if my questions span several sub-forums. Any other thoughts for a potential newbie?

Thank you!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Your first mistake was being sucked in at the range, you think it was a kind gent offering you ago, no, it was an agent of the devil and now you have taken in those noxious gasses and are hooked for life.
Whittering on about what type of gun and cleaning won't save you now. Next your wallet will become loose at its hinge then shortly after followed by rapid hair loss and nothing will settle you from failing to acquire a regular dose of white smoke through the week.

B :thumbsup:

 

[Cruzatte]

1. Matchlock vs. Others: That really depends on the rules of your range. At the range where I shoot, a matchlock may be against the rules, due to the open flame of the burning match. I'd investigate with the range officers first.

2. No, you don't have to completely disassemble your weapon to clean it. Simply running damp cleaning patches up and down bore, followed by dry patches, then an oiled patch or two will do just fine. A toothbrush does well at cleaning the crud from the tight places around the pan and frizzen on your lock.

Welcome to the forum. We're here to enable. :grin: :hatsoff:

 

[Wes/Tex]

You seriously need to corner our Teleoceras! He's our seriously demented Mr. Matchlock. You might look through some of his matchlock videos to see what it's all about...then when you've got the quivers, send him a PM. There are other groups where some of the guys seriously hunt their deer each fall with them. If takes a special kind of silly to sit out in the snow protecting a burning match and waiting for Bambi to come traipsing along! :wink: Spend some time watching these and you'll be hooked! :haha:
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=...93...0j0i30k1j0i5i30k1j33i160k1.0.UG_dSSoeJ6A

 

[bwayne65]

Thanks everyone for the information! Yes, I do have a concern about this becoming the start of a more expensive hobby Strangely enough, my wife was actually somewhat supportive of the idea - I think the idea of shooting without going through multiple boxes of expensive modern ammo appeals to her...

Regarding the range concern with matchlocks, I had a similar thought and was going to email them whether or not it is permissible (to see if even an option). Honestly the simplicity of the matchlock is very interesting to me but I could see the range having a concern with a lit match being close to black powder...

Any thoughts regarding the cheaper Indian guns and/or whether going into the hobby with a horse pistol is a feasible way to get started for smaller $? Not planning to use it for matches or hunting but at the same time I'd like it to be somewhat reliable at the range (i.e. go "boom" when I pull the trigger).

Thanks again!

 

[bwayne65]

Ok, as I thought more about it I'm assuming flintlock would be the best way to go for my first at least...

Since most of the family is sick with colds and flus today, I had time to research potential Christmas presents for myself this afternoon. I was looking at both the Loyalist Arms and Veteran Arms websites and they appear to have muskets in my price ranges ($500 to $700). I do like the look of the different cavalry/artillery carbines. If I actually do decide to purchase, which website would you suggest (if it matters) and recommendations for a carbine? I assume the larger calibers could provide more flexibility if you wanted to shoot shot out of it?

 

[Wes/Tex]

Veterans and Loyalist are probably the two best companies importing Indian made guns now. They both have priority pick of the best makers and take the time to inspect their stuff for possible problems. I'm not sure what to recommend as a choice...much will depend on personal preference. I've never seen the point of carbines unless you're horseback. I prefer the longer sight radius, less blast and more weight to absorb recoil. As for caliber, unless you're planning to try for ducks or geese, 20 gauge will get the job done. Just a few idle thoughts from an idle mind! :wink: :haha:

 

[spudnut]

Matchlocks can be tricky and if your not used to black powder even a bit dangerous.Flint locks are a very dependable choice though is a learning curve but once you in the zone its no problem.Cleaning becomes a nice way to relax ( it is for me) Taking the lock off is two screws, plug the touch hole with a twig ,fill the barrel with warm water and swish it around ,repeat about three times dumping out the water till it runs clear, wet scour the barrel with patches or tow ( yes you will get some tow down the line ) till clean and oil,takes about 20 minutes. Just run the lock under warm water and use a toothbrush ,then dry and oil it,Blackpowder fouling comes off easy with plain water.
I own a couple India guns and they are fine,look it over for fit , almost all will need a little lock work and there are smiths that are good at it out there and it will still be way cheaper than most production guns,Check out auntique tradefairs in your area you may find a Japanese or Italian musket in your price range ,these are pretty good guns.Carbines can kick pretty good ,muskets are the way to go

 

[Grenadier1758]

You will need to use real black powder. The substitute powders do not function with any reliability in a flintlock. Probably not very effective in a matchlock either. Get some good 1 1/8" flints. You will be shooting enough to need a few on hand as the original flint gets dull. Vent picks and properly fitting screwdrivers will also be needed as part of your shooting kit. You might as well add a brass or steel working rod with bore protector and cleaning jag. The India made guns often don't have threads on their ramrod that match up to available cleaning jags and patch pullers and ball pullers.

As you will find out, there is a lot of support equipment required to keep your muzzleloader firing reliably and accurately.


I get good performance from my Loyalist Arms Long Land Pattern musket. I use mine mostly for reenactment.

If you get a gun from Veterans, I would opt for the lock tuning and test firing. Since you are new to muzzleloading and flintlocks, I think that having the lock inspected, tuned and test fired is a good practice.

 

[Many Klatch]

A lot of ranges don't allow matchlocks. It takes a lot of special techniques to load and fire a matchlock without an accident.

There are a lot of good used firearms for sale for less than $1,000. There is a magazine called Smoke and Fire News that lists all the events for all the timelines in the United States. Subscribe, find the local events and get with the local blackpowder shooters. The local people will know where the good used guns are. It's also a lot more fun to shoot in a group.

 

[azmntman]

Look at some auction sites and find a good used North West Trade gun. SURE its military! The gun was shot by military at Indians, traded to the Indians and shot at military by said Indians :shocked2: Its flintlock and if you scroll through our hunting section you'll see they are quite capable at hunting big game.

Or you could start with a pistol. Brit is was right though....yer bud did you bad, slap him next time ya see him and then make him help you tote yer 4 boxes of supplies and 3-4 rifles, smoothies n pistols up to the line! Yer an addict (absolutely no chance for you at all with the wife on board!) :thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

1. Would I be crazy to go the matchlock route as my first BP firearm? Honestly, the simplicity and historical aspect of it greatly interests me but wonder if I'm just asking for "trouble". If not a matchlock then I'd go for flintlock (percussion just doesn't excite me).

Not crazy, but a matchlock is a little more of a concern when handling powder. Like fueling an airplane while smoking a cigar. You have to keep a pit ember going at all times.

2. I do not think I could spend $1K+ for a BP firearm. I've seen websites with the cheaper ($600 to $750) rifles that I believe are Indian made - for an occasional shooter, are they ok?

Nothing is more miserable than a flintlock that won't spark. Simple mechanism but the metallurgy is critical and the lock geometry makes all the difference. I'd either look used or save longer.

3. Due to the monetary concerns in #2, would I be crazy to just get a pistol (larger horse pistol)to quench my BP curiosity?

Not at all. A flintlock pistol is a bunch of fun. If all you want to do is put holes in paper or roll blocks of wood it has much to offer.

4. How hard is it to clean and take care of a BP firearm? For example do you have to fully remove the barrel and lock from the firearm for a thorough cleaning after each time at the range?

You do absolutely not have to remove a barrel. Possibly ever. I had a Bess I removed the barrel once in 15 years and decided it was unnecessary. That was my primary hunting firearm in slushy wet New York. I have never removed the barrel on my flintlock fowler and have no plans to. I do remove the lock to clean it after shooting - but that is simple. Two screws, not overly tight. They clean with soapy water and then a protective oiling.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well, I'd say you should probably look into a reproduction sporting arm first, for $500 or less and be sure you really want to do this hobby. They tend to be very accurate and reliable and not expensive, when sold used.

However, you mentioned a "military" style rifle is normally what you like. Well..., there is a used CW .58 Caliber Zouave Rifle by Antonio Zoli for sale,
and they were known to shoot pretty well,
plus there is a Zouave Rifle (both are copies of a short rifled musket originally made by Remington - iirc - nicknamed "Zouave") You might want to "jump" on one or the other, but I am not familiar with the version sold by CVA, so cannot tell you want to expect when shooting it.

There are a bunch of used, half-stock, Plains Style Rifles, Used in addition to the two I linked above.

Caplock gives you a couple of advantages, a bit more weather resistance than flint, AND in these modern times a bit more versatility in finding powder since you can use substitute powders more readily than in a flinter.

LD

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

... you mentioned a "military" style rifle is normally what you like. Well..., there is a used CW .58 Caliber Zouave Rifle by Antonio Zoli for sale, and they were known to shoot pretty well

Percussion Arms:
FWIW I have a Zoli Zouave and if you match the minieball to the bore size, they are indeed accurate, as in 5-shots through 1 ragged hole at 50-yards accurate. My bore was gauged at 0.580 using a pin gauge and I size them to 0.578” using the sizing die by Lodgewood.

Matchlocks:
I have 3 right now, a 75-cal fishtail, trigger operated, later English civil war type match lock by Middlesex Village Trading, a 62-cal fishtail, trigger operated, caliver matchlock by Leonard Day, and a 75-cal boarding axe/matchlock replica.

I proofed the 75 MVT by shooting 2 balls over an 80-grns 2Fg charge, which may not truly be a 'proof' load, but that's what I did, since I use single ball loads and 40-80 grain charges.

Since Mr. Day makes all of his locks from casts of originals, surely it's a more historic representation. And while the MVT one may be somewhat clunky ... heck, by my reviews of originals ... they ALL were clunky! I honestly can't say it's more clunky than it should be, as I have never hefted an original, but I will tell you that the 75-cal from MVT has been 100% reliable and I've never had a misfire! I also have zero negatives about the build quality - none.

And honestly? For some reason that I cannot explain - and it isn't the caliber - but I enjoy shooting the MVT 75 matchlock MORE than I do the 62 one that Mr. Day made ... go figure.

IMHO matchlocks are simpler to shoot than a flintlock and FASTER in ignition, even faster than a percussion arm as there’s no delay from igniting the cap. Ignition is INSTANT!

Only issue I see with matchlocks and firing ranges is “matchcord management”. Not period correct, but at a range I use a holder of heavy wire placed into the ground at the firing line and that’s where the matchcord is placed. I load and prep from behind the firing line. The match is only touched during a firing sequence. During a cease fire, I extinguish the match. Safety first!

 

[nhmoose]

Do what you want you have been advised.

Good luck in your endeavors this is a free country.

 

[Zonie]

With your interest in military guns in mind, here are a few thoughts.

As the others have mentioned, the Rifled Muskets like the Zouave should be of interest to you except for the fact that the Civil War guns like these are percussion.

These Rifled Muskets all shoot a .58 caliber Minie' ball (slug) but they can also be used with a patched .570 diameter lead roundball.

For flintlocks you might be interested in buying one of the Brown Bess's or the French 1777 infantry pattern gun.

Both were used during the American Revolutionary War.

http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/brownbesseastindiapattern.html
http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/1777charleville.htm

I found both of these India made reproductions at the Loyalist site.

http://www.loyalistarms.ca/muskets.html

You might want to call them to varify the prices shown in the links. No telling how long ago those link sites were made.

As for a matchlock, I wouldn't want one.
IMO, they almost never have sights on them because they came from an era where point and shoot at close range was good enough.
Also, during the period of time they were used they were more a psychological weapon, used to scare the opposing forces more than to slay them.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

As for a matchlock, I wouldn't want one. IMO, they almost never have sights on them because they came from an era where point and shoot at close range was good enough. Also, during the period of time they were used they were more a psychological weapon, used to scare the opposing forces more than to slay them.

Uhhhhhhhh, with due respect, I'm not sure if any or all of those comments, are indeed correct, as based upon the historical perspective of matchlocks. FWIW I have 3 books on the development and use of matchlocks and from what I recall ...

Sights - Tube sights were not only found on matchlocks, but even on crossbows that were in use for a long time even earlier. And a front sight, akin to those found on circa 1700s fowlers, were indeed commonplace, especially on triggered matchlocks.

I have a replica Bavarian one dated to the early 1600s that has an early trigger and tube sights.

Accuracy - From a marksmanship perspective, German/Austrian marksmen (where the organized firearm shooting sports, like Schuetzenfests et al , really originated) stayed with matchlocks well after the development and deployment of flintlocks ... because the guns were more accurate (given the barrels of that time period) due to the faster ignition.

 

[JohnN]

A smoothbore matchlock is just as if not more accurate than a smoothbore flintlock because in some models the match is lowered into the pan rather than pulling a trigger and having the flintlock snap and hit a frizzzen. You can lower the match as slow or fast as you want. I'm surprised we have not heard the chorus of naysayers yet about Indian guns. One problem with them is that lock parts are not readily available and have to be hand made but trying to find American made military muskets is very hard, they have to be custom made.

 

[Zonie]

Thanks for the correction.

 

[bwayne65]

Thanks everyone for the great advice (from different angles). I'm going to see how the Christmas loot shapes up this year and go from there.