Powder granulation importance?

[dogfood]

So I've been shooting muzzleloaders for a while and have always kinda just taken without a second thought there are different sizes of powder for different purposes. However in my former reenactment unit we used FFFG for both pan and bore for both blanks and (smoothbore) bare round ball fire with no ill effects.

So, does using the incorrect granulation pose any safety hazard like with pressure if using too fine? Or does it just result in sub-par performance with a too coarse a powder burning too slowly?

 

[leadhoarder]

Yes at least in theory. In my opinion there is a lot of overlap with the granulations but what you stated is generally true.

 

[Greasecookie]

No. Probably shouldn't use 4f as the propellant charge. 3f is the usual recommendation for under 54 caliber. I find 1.5f Swiss works best for my .45 rifles, but your mileage may and will vary.

 

[Woody Morgan]

Generally, the finer the granulation, the faster the powder burns. There is a difference in quality between manufacturers too with Swiss thought of as top dawg with OE very close behind. Red can Goex is the standard.

wm

 

[EC121]

I like 2F in the larger calibers because it has less recoil. The deer and hogs don't know the difference. 3F and 2F can overlap if you add a little extra 2F.

 

[TNGhost]

No. Probably shouldn't use 4f as the propellant charge. 3f is the usual recommendation for under 54 caliber. I find 1.5f Swiss works best for my .45 rifles, but your mileage may and will vary.

Here we go one more time.

There is no reason or data that 4f should not be used a a main charge. In fact Lyman has data (that has been posted here before) for use of 4F and there are a number of members here that use 4F in barrels as large as that of a Bess.

It gives more shots per pound, burns more completely and leaves less residue.

 

[Musketeer]

So, does using the incorrect granulation pose any safety hazard like with pressure if using too fine? Or does it just result in sub-par performance with a too coarse a powder burning too slowly?

I'm only personally concerned with the latter. The former is one of those things that sounds plausible, but it doesn't seem to pan out in actual use, so I no longer worry about it. Once I burn off my remaining 2f I'm going to start using 3f for everything. If someone offered me a great deal on a few lbs of 4f I'd take it and use it in everything up to and including my Bess, though I know others might be hesitant to do so. I don't think either side is "wrong," just that we have different comfort zones.

 

[tenngun]

You look at old welded barrels you will find them much thicker then what we may run a caliber today. Like a .32 or .36 in an inch or more barrel.
And we read of folks blowing barrels in the old days. Personally I bet most’blew’ because of poor maintenance or a ball not driven home. Still old guns may have not taken pressure as well as today’s. Today if you don’t get too stupid to live most will find a gun will take what you feed it, provided you ram the ball home and clean it well before it rust.
I’ve never shot 4f but a gun not safe to handle it may not be safe enough to shoot.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I quit worrying about grunulation size a few years ago now.
That said I drew some conclusions!
Anything larger than 3f is most definitely not for me!
I will from now on only buy 3f or finer for any calibre or guage 11g and under.
Before anything like an excessive but not dangerous....excessive as in shooter comfort, efficiency or unpractical, is reached your shoulder will let you know and thats if its still accurate or patterns well.

In short dont worry about it. There is zero accounts of an accident associated with the use of very fine powders.

 

[Stony Broke]

I quit using anything other than 3f some years ago. For many years I had a good supply of 2f and 4f to use for all the different stuff, but found I really wasn't getting any better performance with them. The only granulation that would probably help some folks is using 4f for the pan on flintlocks as it's easier to ignite with the sparks....but a lot of guys use 3f for that as well with no problems.

 

[VADSLRAM]

In any "modern" barrel there is almost zero risk if you use a reasonable amount of powder, no mater what the grain. Accuracy can be dialed in by using specific grain size for bore and barrel length, but it will all push the lead.
It would be a huge waste to put 100 grains of Fg because it wouldn't all burn before being pushed out the barrel. The (gasp) BP alternatives come packed as single pellets so obviously it does work. Where you might come to have some issues is trying to use FFg as prime in a flinter., not terminal but more dry clicks than with FFFFg.
My rule of thumb is given the distinct lack of other BP shooters the powder is getting tougher to find, So I use whatever I can get.

 

[okawbow]

What many people don't seem to understand about black powder, is that a pound of black powder is still a pound, regardless of the grain size. It’s also all the same stuff no matter is 4F or 1F. When you measure a charge by volume, there IS a difference in the WEIGHT of the charge depending on the grain size. If you weight the charge, 70 grains of 3F will give you the same shots per pound as 70 grains of 1F.
I have found that for me, the 2F and 1 1/2F sizes give better accuracy in my long barreled target rifles than any brand of 3F. I doubt if there is any difference in muzzle velocity in equal grain charges, because of the longer barrels. The slower burning larger grains seem to produce less recoil and less damage to the patches. That alone could be the reason for better accuracy. I have also heard that 2F is more consistent in grain size than 3F, because the smaller grain sizes have more fines in them due to the screening process.
I use 2F in my .40 caliber rifles with great results.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

The chemical formula of Black Powder is consistent through out. The differences in granulation determines rate of burn, courser granulations of powder will burn slower than than finer granulations.

I've actually read here of a guy that was using 4ffffg for his primary charge, it produced a sharp audible crack when the gun was fired; as compared to the normal woomph when using 2ffg or 3fffg. I use 4ffffg for priming my flintlocks, or 3fffg if I forget or run out of 4ffffg.

I have used 2ffg and 3fffg in almost all my guns at one time or another. I have 2 guns that; when I change between powders, but use the same charge volume; point of impact at 100 yards does not change.

3fffg tends to produce a very sharp recoil in my guns that are .54 calibre or larger.

 

[Packrat]

I use 3F in most of mine, 62 cal Jaeger, but I have found that 2F works best i my Trade Gun with shot,seems to puch the shot a tad slower and keeps better grouping.

 

[deermanok]

For years I only used 2f, until someone gave me a few pounds of 3f. Since then, the 3f has been all I use.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Here we go one more time.

There is no reason or data that 4f should not be used a a main charge. In fact Lyman has data (that has been posted here before) for use of 4F and there are a number of members here that use 4F in barrels as large as that of a Bess.

It gives more shots per pound, burns more completely and leaves less residue.

The Lyman data (From about 1975) for the use of 4fg is listed for revolvers. Pressure was consistent with the safety limits for the revolvers used up to a Colt open top 1860 44 caliber. The Second edition of the loading manual published in about 1984 does not have data for 4fg powder except for flintlock pan priming.

Historical revolver cartridges have been taken apart and the powder is consistent with 4fg.

The finer the grain the faster it burns and generates more pressure. For our use, loads with 3fg or 2fg in our rifles will make little difference from a safety perspective.

 

[dogfood]

Thanks for the replies, gents. I appreciate the information!
Cheers,
dgfd

 

[TNGhost]

Thanks for the replies, gents. I appreciate the information!
Cheers,
dgfd

There are a number of previous threads on this subject as it pops up on a regular basis. Some of them are quite long and thorough and may provide more insight for you if you look them up.

 

[Greasecookie]

I agree 4f isn't a danger in modern barrels, just probably not the "best". Didn't mean to start a food fight. Maybe I should say something about WD-40 .

 

[steam1993]

Not guns but mortar. I have found with my 24 pound/5.8 inch bore mortar that powder grain size makes a difference.
I have used 1f,2f and 3f, but now only use 1f as the 2f/3f burn to hot and fast. With 1 once 1f the ball will go appoz 100 yards, with either 2 or 3f the ball will go any where from 75 to 130 yards. So for my mortar 1f is the best, as the cannon balls cost about$75 each,(have lost 5) so i stick to 1f for constant results.
I have worked with and trained by a group here in MN. that has been around since 1863, they are a civilian battery that was formed here for the Indian wars.