powder in the pan ignites powder in chamber

[jimairwin]

This is one of the best mental masturbation posts I've ever read. Keep them coming!

It has been rather entertaining, hasn't it?

What's so crazy is how posters really seem to believe the manure they're posting!

1. Flint strikes steel (frizzen) & scrapes/scratches off tiny bits of steel, which causes tiny bits to high temperature.
2. Tiny bits of steel burn in presence of oxygen...generating what we call sparks. (BTW there is no oxygen in sulphur... both are elements)
3. Some sparks fall into pan with small grain priming powder
4. Sparks ignite small grain priming powder
5. Burning bits of solids from burning priming powder go everywhere... Some find their way into flash hole... Some of those find their way to propellant (powder) charge.
6. Propellant powder charge ignites
7. BANG!

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

If that's the case, why not just funnel the sparks straight into the main charge? Seems that would be a simpler and more direct ignition solution.

Today we call that a cap lock.

 

[mushka]

This is kind of like how does electricity work. It does work but nobody knows exactly how. I asked a man who knew a lot about it how it worked. He said "Magic".
How does the ignition in a flintlock work? Magic.

 

[smo]

As the old saying goes, where there’s smoke, there’s fire.

 

[Omhra]

Omhra I am trying to figure out if we are saying the same thing or something different.


A sharp piece of flint (or other mineral with the hardness of 7 or greater) being held in the jaws of the cock, then falling forward under the pressure of the spring, scraping the frizzen creating sparks, is no different than using a steel striker and a piece of flint with char cloth or punk wood to create embers. The flint needs to be sharp to scrape the minute pieces metal off the harden face of the steel. "The pyrophoricity of the carbon steel results in the metal shavings oxidizing in the air becoming molten." from Wikipedia. As I understand it the face being struck needs to be harden, but softer than the stone, so only those minute shavings of steel are scraped off (friction) creating the sparks which are molten pieces of the metal. I am guessing, but the higher the carbon content of the metal being used increases the volatility of the metal when scraped producing more and hotter sparks. The less carbon fewer sparks are created. The softer the metal the flint gouges the metal instead of shaving/scraping the metal. DANNY

We are saying something very similar, but from different angle, and at different microscope magnification.

• Plasma born from a "flame" is mostly super heated air, while most of the same air carries and oxidizes the paraffin vapors as it convects, giving it its shape. We see only a small portion of the emissions from it.
• A spark is generated when the molecular structure is strained past its "limit" and molecular bonds break, or an activation threshold is reached by pressure.
• Rising the temperature of the potassium nitrate above 336F, by any means, will begin the separation of the Potassium from the molecule and scramble the Oxygen bonds to the Nitrogen, and its own oxidation into K nitrite. Fueling the rest of the combustibles.

Back at the frizzen at the moment of impact.

• Impact creates heat.
• The heat stems from the bulk kinetic force that is transferred at the focus point of impact of the materials.
• The transference of energy is bidirectional and manifests from the imparted molecular motion (principally) and bond separation break (secondarily but more intense, brief, and microscopic in this case) from both materials.

You could substitute flint with other materials to strike steel. The results may not be optimal as they will shatter and dull-up making the energy transfer less efficient. You could also strike it into something other than steel, but it would also be less efficient.
Steel bristles with carbon.

Because carbon oxidizes, it is good to flash it (boil it, vaporize it, burn it) oxidise it into plasma with something like flint with a proper energy impact to decouple molecules at the right scale and provide the excess energy to get it going.

The energy release from the rock crystal into the steel crystal make the spark.
The genesis at the point of impact comes from both materials.
The recipe is good to get concentrated "heat balls" to the pan.

Apologies for being so long winded.

 

[FishDFly]

It's like the bumble bee and flying, it ain't supposed to happen. but it does.

 

[hanshi]

Radiant heat! NO! Sparks from the pan, you're correct.

 

[Dude]

Today we call that a cap lock.

Yeah - or how about primer ignition? And even there, is it sparks from the primer or a flame front that gets the job done?

But my point is this - back in the 1600s when the flintlock was invented, why was it created with a more complex system than necessary if all was needed was funneling sparks into the chamber? Why go the round-about approach of sparks to pan, then to the chamber?

Was it maybe because it was the next step after the matchlock and the logical progression? Or is it that sparks can't be expected to survive the distance to the main charge?

Magic - good explanation! I like it. Reminds me of something I heard once that scientists aren't really sure what flame is - whether it's a chemical reaction or an electrical phenomenon.

The more I learn about this, the more like magic it seems. Flintlocks are sounding more fun all the time!

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

But my point is this - back in the 1600s when the flintlock was invented, why was it created with a more complex system than necessary if all was needed was funneling sparks into the chamber? Why go the round-about approach of sparks to pan, then to the chamber?

Over complicated or not, it is the longest standing ignition system to date and for good reason, it works.

Overthinking it will just give you a headache.

 

[old ugly]

i still think its magic

 

[Grenadier1758]

I think the easiest way invented to light a chamber of black powder was to lower a glowing match into some powder next to the touch hole. The other development was the wheel lock. That generated a massive shower of sparks into the pan. This was a mechanically fragile system, what with the various chains and spring driven wheels. That was quickly replaced by early variants of snaphaunces and Miquelet locks before the flint lock we are now familiar with. The design evolution soon deviated from a blast of sparks in the general direction of the touch hole from a wheel lock through the various sparking steels the ignited a small fire in a pan next to the touch hole.

 

[Marc Schmidt]

There may be trolls out there...

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

There may be trolls out there...

You may be onto something...................................

 

[Danny Ross]

Omhra, you just think smaller than I do. To the molecular level.

 

[GregLaRoche]

What I have found the most interesting are the pictures of the inside of the chamber.

https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-3-photography-through-the-muzzle/
To me, this shows that there is a flame that enters the chamber and no sparks, unless they are obscured. Whether or not the flames are accompanied with radiant heat, I can’t say.
What is the definition of a flame? Does it contain radiant heat? To me it is burning gases.

 

[M. De Land]

What I have found the most interesting are the pictures of the inside of the chamber.

https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-3-photography-through-the-muzzle/
To me, this shows that there is a flame that enters the chamber and no sparks, unless they are obscured. Whether or not the flames are accompanied with radiant heat, I can’t say.
What is the definition of a flame? Does it contain radiant heat? To me it is burning gases.

If you have a well tuned lock it will amaze you how often it will fire without any powder in the pan at all! The sun gives us radiant energy and as far as I know it is the fastest physical means of heat transfer hence the pan powder flash !

 

[Gonetocamp]

Guys, Guys, Guys - let this topic go. As has been said several pages back, if it goes bang All Is Well.

 

[GregLaRoche]

Some of us are interested in more than it just goes bang.

 

[Leadball loader]

Larry Pletcher is a resource I have enjoyed reading. His experiments give a really good picture of how the flintlock works its magic for me.
I know how to fill my pan and get good ignition consistently through his work!
LBL

 

[MichaelCfffg]

Just a couple of thoughts on this thread. One, a frizzen needs to be carbon steel in order to be hardenable. It is the carbon that allows steel to get hard. Second, I have read an article on flintlocks by an author whose standard practice was to stick a feather in the touch-hole before loading his rifle to help keep the full charge of powder in the barrel. Then he would just pull the feather out without putting a priming charge in the priming pan, and he'd be ready to go. If he got a spark from his flint and frizzen, the gun would go off every time with just the minimal powder or dust that came out with the feather.