powder in the pan ignites powder in chamber

[megasupermagnum]

Well, Black powder is a highly modified, quick burning wood. Wood does not burn. It is the gasses from the hot wood that burn, and the radiant heat, along with air and more gas/fuel that keeps the fire going. Sparks provide heat, heat makes fire, and fire makes heat which makes more fire.

Doesn't much matter, but at the end of the day heat is what causes something to burn.

 

[M. De Land]

You are igniting the priming Powder with sparks, but it is the radiant heat from the burning primer powder that creates the radiant heat, that finds its way into the chamber. It’s not like a fuse burning. At least that is what I think this theory is suggesting.

Well that seals it as fact if a video proclaims whats true! If radiant (infared) energy is defined as powder flash then I can agree.

 

[Musketeer]

I hope that @Larry Pletcher can get on this thread and straighten us out.

Indeed, I'd love to hear Larry's opinion on this, given that several of his experiments with flintlock ignition have flown in the face of conventional thoughts on the subject. Of particular interest are these two experiments:

Filled Vent Test – Is it Slower?

Pan Vent Experiments – An Introduction (particularly Part 6)

 

[LawrenceA]

Perhaps it is one or the other so basically both or either.

Does the powder degrade to combustible gas then ignite from the heat?
Does the powder decompose and or burn as the spark gets close or only on contact?

Interesting question but as long as it burns does it matter.
I do know I can stub the match out on my matchlock in powder if I am not careful.
However with nitro cellulose powder it does not burn but, as stated elsewhere, decomposes into combustible gases which burn creating the chain reaction. Black may be the same

 

[GregLaRoche]

Indeed, I'd love to hear Larry's opinion on this, given that several of his experiments with flintlock ignition have flown in the face of conventional thoughts on the subject. Of particular interest are these two experiments:

Filled Vent Test – Is it Slower?

Pan Vent Experiments – An Introduction (particularly Part 6)

Thanks for those links they were quite informative. It sure would be great to have Larry Pletcher’s ideas on this question.

 

[FishDFly]

Okay, if it's radiant heat, why is lock time faster with finer grain powder, i.e. 7F than 2F?

From Larry's experiments, the finer the grains the faster the lock times.

 

[Feltwad]

Flint flacks from the wrong size flint in the pan can cause a ignition
Feltwad

 

[FishDFly]

Out of curiosity, why the wrong size versus the correct size?

 

[Commodore Swab]

In my testing of flintlocks as I tune the locks I do a considerably brutal test involving what becomes an extremely dirty lock. This is done by repeated firings of the lock without cleaning anything between firing to test for reliability. It is key on a reliable lock for the sparks to be delivered directly into the powder in the pan and for them to "sit" there as long as possible. Locks that deliver sparks to the region but not directly to the pan simply are not reliable and will fail the test. I can see how it is confusing looking at things with a clean lock but with each firing and additional build up on a dirty lock it becomes far less confusing.

On a lock like this with a good flint and a clean lock you will get reliable ignition but if you note the sparks miss the pan. It is possible the heat generated does ignite the powder or there are so many bouncing around that something ignites. After about a dozen shots a lock where they sparks are like this will no longer fire until it is cleaned.

In this picture the sparks are directed directly into the pan and as things get dirty and the spark is reduced the lock will continue to function with a weak spark.

Going thru my test sometimes ignition will be delayed by a 1/4 to 1/2 second. I fail to see how it would still ignite if it was heat but a spark working its way in thru the dirt may just do it.

 

[FishDFly]

Radiant heating is the effect you feel when you can feel the warmth of a hot stovetop element from across the room.

The autoignition temperature or kindling point of a substance is the lowest temperature in which it spontaneously ignites in a normal atmosphere without an external source of ignition, such as a flame or spark. This temperature is required to supply the activation energy needed for combustion.


Can't see radiant heat setting off the charge.

 

[S.Kenton]

If you watch the video, he actually called it “inferred” heat. I’ve always been told that a firearm that uses powder, wether it’s black or smokeless, uses an “Ignition system“ ignition means to ignite... ignite means to burn through an ignition source, this particular ignition source happens to be molten pieces of steel touching fine granules of black powder... the mechanism that is play here is simply combustion. That’s my two cents...

 

[Lippy984]

To test this theory, couldn’t you take a red hot iron and hold it next to the touch hole?

but in my eyes, the distance between the charge and the pan is too great for radiant heat to provide instant combustion

 

[S.Kenton]

One could also take a red hot iron and hold it near a a tiny bit of powder near the pan. Bet ya it won’t go off until it makes contact with the powder....

 

[FishDFly]

Yep, to the poker.

"I recently watched a video and it was stated", just because something is in a VIDEO, does not make it a fact.

 

[Art Caputo]

I suspect that the ignition process in a flintlock is the result of BOTH convection and radiant heat transferred to the main charge.

When black powder combustion takes place the end product is approximately 43% gas, 56% solids, 1% water.
It is probable that the fastest component of ignition will likely occur from the heat transfer of the propelled gas through a clear flash channel. Given the speed at which the gases are propelled during combustion, it would be likely that convection would be a major contributor to the ignition of the main charge. Given both convection and radiant heat transfer can occur simultaneously, radiant heat can be contributing as well. While there may be tests or experiments available to determine this, but the videos and various experiments that we read about in muzzleloader publications may be OK to determine ignition times, but are not sophisticated enough to determine whether it is convection, combustion or a combination of the two that is occurring during ignition. IMO.

 

[Henry Miles]

The priming charge in the pan is set off by the direct contact of the powder and the spark coming together. If they don't touch, the powder doesn't ignite. In the same way, if the priming charge goes off but doesn't make contact with the main charge, it's a flash in the pan. Heat alone is nothing without direct contact with the powder.

 

[S.Kenton]

The priming charge in the pan is set off by the direct contact of the powder and the spark coming together. If they don't touch, the powder doesn't ignite. In the same way, if the priming charge goes off but doesn't make contact with the main charge, it's a flash in the pan. Heat alone is nothing without direct contact with the powder.

I agree, otherwise why would we even bother drilling out toucholes and worrying about tapering the inside or outside of a ventliner? Or touch hole positioning? If the mechanism is simply radiant heat then none of this should matter

 

[FishDFly]

Very well said.

 

[FishDFly]

I agree, otherwise why would we even bother drilling out toucholes and worrying about tapering the inside or outside of a ventliner? Or touch hole positioning? If the mechanism is simply radiant heat then none of this should matter

Recently there was a thread about the barrel charge going into the pan and becoming the priming charge.

 

[Poguetx]

It's the hot gas from the priming pan going off that ignites the main charge. That's why old timers fill the pan at most half way, and then cant the gun and tap it a few times so the powder in the pan is away from the touch hole once the fizzen is closed. If the pan is full to make a "fuse", you add a few milliseconds to the ignition time. So "they" say...