Powder load

[takturna]

Hello
This is my first year of shooting a muzzle loader after 30+ years of modern firearm hunting. So my question I bought a new Deerhunter muzzle loader made by tradition I have shot this a number of times but have not been able to get it to group better than an 8 inch square area. I started at 70 grains triple 7 powder as recommended and have even dropped to 6o gains with no change in the grouping size I am at this time shooting just balls at a distance of 50 yards. Has anyone in the group shot one of the deerhunter muzzle loaders and if so what were your groups and grains of powder
Thanks

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the forum.

You didn't mention what sort of projectile your shooting and that can make a big difference.

If your shooting a roundball, you didn't say what sort of patch you were using to patch the ball and I'm guessing that is the best place to start changing things.

777 synthetic black powder is noted for its ability to burn patches and if your patches are being burned when the gun fires, it will never shoot accurately.

I'm going to assume you are shooting a .50 caliber rifle so, if your using roundballs, you should be using a .490 diameter ball.

The patches you would use should be about .015 thick and lubricated with either a store bought patch lube, olive or vegetable oil or one of the many home made formulas.

Failure to lubricate the patch will cause it to rip or burn when loading or shooting.

If you are shooting a conical, be aware that there are many different types and one will shoot better than all the others. The problem is, each gun will have one it likes and many it doesn't so, finding the right one can be time consuming and costly.

Getting back to patches.
If you bought some pre-lubricated patches they might be the problem.

The lube weakens the cloth and if they are newly made they will work fine. If they have been sitting on a store shelf for a year or more they will blow apart.

Make it a point to retrieve your shot patches.

Look for burns and tares or anything else that looks strange at the location where the ball squeezed the patch against the bore.

Pay no attention to the outer area. It always gets tattered and shredded when the patch meets the supersonic blast of wind when it leaves the muzzle.

 

[azmntman]

I bet you keep playing with it you be getting 2-3 inch groups pretty soon. The guns capable of that for sure. Good luck!

 

[takturna]

Yes it is a 50 caliber. Yes they are 490 with a 15 thick patch which are lubed in the package as I say this is my first time at shooting muzzle loader and was wondering if anyone else has shot this model and maybe could give an idea on how many grains of triple 7 I should be starting out with
.

 

[tenngun]

Are you shooting from a solid rest, are you getting good caps, with out hang fires, are you stabing between shots, is it a brand new gun? Some times the muzzle may be a little sharp and need to "lap" in. Try 25 yards. Worry about getting the tightest groups, don't zero it here. Then move to 50. I like black powder, I have never shot triple 7, but pyrodex needs a hot cap to light it off. Poor caps will open your groups.

 

[azmntman]

Did you thoroughly clean out the packing grease before shooting?

Are you benching it or offhand?

Have you ever shot BP before? (flinching?)

Buy new or used? If used is the barrel bulged?

60 grains a good starting point. May wanna try pyrodex RS too? Have a buddy shoot it as well to make sure its the gun :idunno:

 

[Tom Compton]

Start wiuth 50 gr of FFg and a thicker patch .018-.020" should help a lot. As Zonie said lube the patch. Hoppes 9 for BP is good.

 

[takturna]

I don't seem to have any hang fire I drop the hammer and it's gone and yes it is a brand new gun I really like it but would like to get a lot better grouping. The reason for the triple 7 is because none of the area suppliers carry black powder only the substitutes so I was told when I bought the muzzle loader to use triple 7. So maybe start back at say the 25 yards and get my grouping in then move out to 50 to 75 yards. Now I was told by the store owner who shoots muzzle loader only to stay in the range of 60 to 75 grains. So maybe back up to 25 yards and start out at 50-60 grains.

 

[azmntman]

Also, you may wanna get a yard of pillow or mattress ticking at wal-mart or your local fabric store and cut into 1 1/2 in strips. Lube this with Hoppes #9 black powder solvent and patch lube (regular Hoppes no good) and cut at muzzle, then yer patches will be uniform and lubed the same each shot. Just but ball on end of strip over muzzle, strike down with ball starter and snip of the end flush with the muzzle.

 

[Zonie]

When most of us talk about powder loads we are giving the "black powder volume equivalent" of real black powder.

Triple seven produces about 15 percent more energy per grain so if one of us says, "use 60 grains" you should be using 60 -(.15 X 60) = 60 - 9 = 51 grains (by volume). (Don't worry about the 1 grain. Just use 50 grains.)

Measure the powder by volume. That is, with a container that would hold whatever the amount is of real black powder. All of the muzzleloading powder measures are built to do this.

I mention this because synthetic powders like Seven seven seven and Pyrodex are lighter in actual weight than a similar volume of real black powder so don't actually "weigh" them on a powder scale.

 

[takturna]

Thanks to all who have responded so far. When I measure my triple 7 it is in a powder measure not scale. I like the idea of using the sheet and cutting at the muzzle although it will be this coming weekend before I can get back out to try these suggestions thanks again to all who have suggested things to try will get back with the results.

 

[AZbpBurner]

You said it's a brand new rifle. That may be of more importance than an actual correct load. Most barrels benefit immensely by breaking in. All mine initially grouped poorly until I had fired around 250-300 rounds. Take it out, shoot it to make noise and to practice loading and handling, but don't be concerned about one-hole groups just yet. As your groups begin to shrink, you csn begin to debelop your accurate loads.

And avoid the temptation to scour out your bore with abrasives or steel wool in attempt to shortcut breaking in the barrel. Many will swear by it, but just as many have prematurely worn barrels by trying to shortcut it.

 

[jamieorr]

I'm a relative newcomer myself, also started with pre-lubed, store bought patches. I found the patches sold as.015 were only half that. Moving to a thicker patch, measuring an actual .018 compressed, made a huge difference. I used a commercial solvent/lube but have found spit works as well as anything, at least at my level of skill.

Jamie

 

[Mike Boettcher]

I'd sure be retrieving and checking those patches. As others have said they ought to be burned slightly but not all the way through, without any cuts also. Look at them carefully, you'll be able to tell the difference with a bit of practice.

For lube I tried a lot of different types over the years, everything from olive oil to Crisco to ballistol but just plain, good 'ol spit has turned out to work real good for me.

Good luck brother, keep shooting until you find the combination that works best for you and your rifle.

 

[tenngun]

Siliva is great as a lube for shooting off a line, and general plinking. It dries out if you try to carry a loaded gun in the woods. It will shoot a little different as you get a little faster velocity on a greased patch then with a spit patch. It's not enough to make an effect on game, but could make a difference if you were doing any target competition. I don't shoot that style myself as I tend to play a lot with traditional loading.

 

[Mike Boettcher]

tenngun: You're spot on. Spit does dry pretty fast. I do shoot a lot of paper so that's why I like it. Out hunting is a different story, a good lube has a place also. Different rifles and patch thickness also plays a role. There are a lot of different combinations to try and it just takes a lot of shooting to get it just right.

 

[MSW]

welcome to the addictive world of muzzle loading!

you mentioned that the owner of the gun store where you purchased the rifle shoots ML, so I will forego my usual tirade about sales clerks who know a great deal about how to separate you from the contents of your wallet, but very little if anything about the intricacies of ML shooting.

you should give this a try: http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

Mr. Schoultz has top drawer credentials as a coach, and his method works - guaranteed (not by me, by him). This will be the best twenty bucks you've spent in a very long time. He answers all your questions about patch lubes, shot to shot consistency and so on.

One more thought: although it does not appear so, the lock time of a ML firearm is much slower than the centerfire. therefore, the necessity of 'followthrough' is absolutely essential. I didn't believe this until I tried dry firing for about twenty minutes a day at a little dot on the wall (do this with your hammer down: if you do it at full cock, you'll beat your nipple and hammer , and if you do it at half cock, you may damage your lock). After a few weeks, my shooting improved (from embarrassment to pretty bad, but it did improve).

good luck, and make good smoke!

 

[Don Steele]

After all the good suggestions posted..I'm just going to Reiterate what MSW said:
After contacting Dutch and getting his system, read and FOLLOW. There's no magic in there, and if you wish...after 5-10 yrs of active practice, you most likely figure it all out for yourself without Dutch's thoughts on the topic.
Then...Re-Read and heed the following:
"One more thought: although it does not appear so, the lock time of a ML firearm is much slower than the centerfire. therefore, the necessity of 'followthrough' is absolutely essential. I didn't believe this until I tried dry firing for about twenty minutes a day at a little dot on the wall (do this with your hammer down: if you do it at full cock, you'll beat your nipple and hammer , and if you do it at half cock, you may damage your lock). After a few weeks, my shooting improved (from embarrassment to pretty bad, but it did improve)."

Good luck, and most important...Enjoy the journey.

 

[mr.flintlock]

All of these suggestions that have been offered here are good ones. I'll reiterate learning to read your patches can be important. One thing I will add to the other suggestions is to check to make sure that your sights are tight. If they are moving the slightest amount from shot to shot, you will not be happy with the results.

 

[catman]

You have got to use real black powder to make them work period. They did..