Powder measure

[tenngun]

I must confess that I'm at a loss here as "grains" is a measurement of weight and not volume.

It is here too. It works out that a volume of approximately 70 grains of 2 f powder will hold about an oz of lead shot. It's not exact for sure. It's not going to work out across the board. In general shooting it puts paid on most targets.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I must confess that I'm at a loss here as "grains" is a measurement of weight and not volume.

The calculations are indeed volume. However when you have a volume calculation and pour black powder of 235 grains per cubic inch, you will have a weight equivalent for that particular brand of black powder. Since most black powder GOEX 2fg, Goex 3fg, Scheutzen, KIK, WANO and Graf's have a density of 232 to 238 with GOEX Cartridge sometimes being 252, the volume measure with regards to weight is within a tolerance range of +/- 3%.

We can accept that for a measure of black powder.

 

[necchi]

How do you determine how large to make the cavity to hold your charge?

I simply use an adjustable volumetric measure to find the load I need for the PRB combo I'm using,, then transfer that volume to a hand made measure.
There's a lot of messing around sometimes to get it just right, depends on what I use and how I want it to look and work.

When I'm using a "volume" charge I don't worry about weight.
When I use a "weighted" charge I don't worry about volume.

I guess I'm smart enough to understand that "Volume equivalent" of a given weight is exactly what it means and not a standard of measure. And that I can use either interchangeably.
I can make my weighted charge into a volume,,
I can make my volume of charge into a weight,,
I get to choose.

Sadly that's confusing for most folks, :youcrazy: :idunno:

 

[Gene L]

I think volume in a powder measure is based on weight. Grains is a weight measure that's been interpreted into volume. A for example a 50 gr. measure is calibrated on the weight and is adjusted to the size of the measure that will weigh 50 grains.

Grains is grains. And that's a solid statistic and reflected on all powder measures. If you have an adjustable measure (and who doesn't) if you key up 40 grains, if you weigh it on a scale, you'll see it weighs 40 grains. You adjust the size of your volume measure to throw a weight of powder

At least that's the way I do it. Whatever works for you, but I believe that originally, a volume measure was based on the weight of the powder it was calibrated to measure. How else would you determine the size of the charge?

 

[hanshi]

I normally use an adjustable measure to find a good load. Then I make a fixed measure to hold that amount. After that, the charge is weighed just to see the exact weight. BP is a VOLUME measured powder and actually doesn't need to be weighed.

 

[Gene L]

Nope. Milliliter is a volume measure, grains is a weight measure.

BP doesn't need to be individually weighed once you discover the volume it takes to equal a grain weight and make a measure that reflects that weight.

It's the same with smokeless powder. You determine the charge by weighing it on a scale and then you set your powder measure to reflect that weight.

The numbers on an adjustable BP measure reflect a specific weight and translate that into volume.

 

[Zonie]

I'm glad to see no one here actually takes "grains" literately.

I somehow imagine someone with his super magnifying glasses on with a little stick, scraping little pieces of black powder out of a small pile over to another even smaller pile saying as he works,

"... 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 grains!
Boy. That don't look like enough powder fer hunting with! I don't think that little pile o' powder could blow the rump off a housefly!"

:grin:

 

[Gene L]

A "Grain" originally was the weight of a grain of wheat. Edward 1st I believe, standardized it and it was used to measure things like gold when a fine measure was necessary. Lots of things originated from ordinary everyday things: a foot, a furlong, and the list goes on.

 

[AZbpBurner]

I normally use an adjustable measure to find a good load. Then I make a fixed measure to hold that amount. After that, the charge is weighed just to see the exact weight. BP is a VOLUME measured powder and actually doesn't need to be weighed.

I have several adjustable powder measures - one my Dad bought back in the 70's from Golden Age Arms, when their shop was in
Worthington, Ohio. I have a newer Ampco adjustable measure, as well as a Ted CAsh & even one I suspect was made in either Taiwan or maybe India. Oddly enough, when comparing the volume settings, they all throw equivalent charges when weighed.

I make powder measures / dippers from fired brass and use any of the adjustable measures for a given charge volume, then trim / file the brass to length to throw the charge I want.

 

[hanshi]

Nope. Milliliter is a volume measure, grains is a weight measure.

BP doesn't need to be individually weighed once you discover the volume it takes to equal a grain weight and make a measure that reflects that weight.

It's the same with smokeless powder. You determine the charge by weighing it on a scale and then you set your powder measure to reflect that weight.

The numbers on an adjustable BP measure reflect a specific weight and translate that into volume.

:hmm: I thought that was what I said. :idunno:

 

[necchi]

I think volume in a powder measure is based on weight. Grains is a weight measure that's been interpreted into volume. A for example a 50 gr. measure is calibrated on the weight and is adjusted to the size of the measure that will weigh 50 grains.

Well this has been hashed over 100 times,, and your kinda right what you say is/was the original intent.

But it's a global market, powders have changed,, all powders are not the same,, that's a given.

So we can not say, that a volume of 50grns of 2F Goex weighs the same as a volume of 3F Swiss.
(just as example)

I load CF also, and do so for explicit accuracy,
I can-not set my volumetric powder measure to "toss" a load exactly the same each time,,
,,I toss light and trickle up.
Sure, it's an extra step,, but it's the only way I can get a volume toss to "weigh" the same each time.

It's different with our BP arms, 1 or 2 tenths of a grain doesn't matter.

The point is this age old argument of trying to match actual scale weight of Black Powder to a volume measure of Black Powder is mute,, it's not important at all.
What is important is to have a method of measuring the same amount of powder each time for each shot.


How it's measured doesn't matter, consistency does.

 

[Gene L]

Another way of going about it is to hollow out a section of something, say an antler, and weigh say 60 grains of powder on a scale, pour it into the hollowed out antler and cut the top off so it's level. Or buying a brass measure which has the grains (weight) engraved on the plunger.

ALL powder is measured by weight. Smokeless powder is measured this way; you set your powder thrower by trial and error to throw a consistent charge according to your scale and the hollow drum dispenses a hopefully consistent charge of weight. Unlike BP, the tenths of a grain are more vital with smokeless. But to say BP is MEASURED by volume is wrong and putting the cart before the horse. BP is dispensed by volume based on the weight associated with the volume.

I feel this discussion is chasing its tail since all manuals on smokeless and BP base their charges on weight...like 60 grains or whatever. I may be missing something here since this seems so self evident.

 

[necchi]

BP is dispensed by volume based on the weight associated with the volume.

And "which" Black Powder granulation and by "Which" Black Powder manufacturer makes that statement?

ALL powder is measured by weight

This is right off the web,,

Due to Pyrodex being less dense than black powder, a measurement by weight on a scale of 60 grains of mass of Pyrodex would be near a 30 percent overload. Volume equivalence is a benefit in loading muzzleloading firearms, traditionally loaded using volumetric measures.

So there it is kind of explicitly expressed above,
Mass
Is Different
Then
Volume.
(period)
And not universally the same among all powders be they true bp or faux.

 

[Gene L]

And mass is different from weight. And both are different from volume.
https://www.thoughtco.com/mass-and-weight-differences-606116

Although Pyrodex is indeed measured by volume, although the volume of say 60 gr. of Pyrodex is equal to the volume/weight of 60 gr. of BP. But the weight would be entirely different. I guess.

I don't use Pyrodex so I'm not totally familiar with it. I just know what I read.

I don't want to sound pedantic or argumentative on this, but BP weight charges are pretty well set in stone. You adjust your load to the most accurate, then adjust your powder measure to reflect that load. You can do it backwards, but it's still the same. Most brass measures I've seen go up ten grains in increments. Therefore, if you ideal load is 55 grains, you have to interpolate.

 

[coloradoclyde]

OMG....
Everything is standardized to a volume weight of real black powder....This is why we measure by volume not weight ....Because different powders weigh differently....Sooooo, we weigh by volume.....instead of weight.

Yes, you can weigh your powder....but if you switch powders your ratio will be off.....because different powders can weigh different amounts... Even if is the same brand and grade of powder...the weight can be different but the volume should be the same...to a standardized weight.


Does any of this make sense....or am I just talking to the wall?

 

[Gene L]

What is the formula for the volume of 60 grains of BP? Because I know the solution for 60 grains by weight. We establish the volume in our measures by weight, which is a constant. We DISPENSE by volume, because it's convenient, but establish that volume by weighing the charge and creating a cavity that corresponds.

Powder charges are established and posted by grains. There is no volume value on grains of powder. 10 grains of powder will always weigh 10 grains, although 2f will take up more space than 4F.

 

[coloradoclyde]

There is no "formula" because different powders are a variable...They are standardized for each powder.....For example: Pyrodex Says to reduce by 10% equivalent....Other say they are an equivalent....

Changing the weight of BP without changing the volume can drastically affect the burn rate and pressure...

weight can vary but volume remains a constant....since BP deflagrates, volume is more important than weight..

 

[necchi]

OMG....

I have to agree with that.

And mass is different from weight. And both are different from volume.
https://www.thoughtco.com/mass-and-weight-differences-606116[/quote]
OMG is right,
Nobody is slinging 60grns of powder in centrifugal force at 2gs,
Gene, if your this desperate to prove a point,,
I bow out,, your right, I'm wrong.
I should have never considered the difference between volume and weight in my lifetime :redface:
I will from now on load all of my 308 sierra 168 hpbt from my rcbs uniflow after it is set precisely at 42.9grns as prescribed by it's meter rod.
I can sell of of my other tools,, I should have never invested,