Pre 1840's gun?

[Huntnut]

I'm looking at getting a few new guns around the first of the year, I had to sell some of my other rifles this year so I need to replase them. Thos time I'm going to flintlocks rifles and smooth bores. I'm probably going to get a Indian Tradegun .62 smoothbore. But i was wondering which of these other 2 rifles I'm looking at would be best for pre 1840 rendezvous. I looking at a Early or Late Lancaster from TVM and a Leman Hawken full stock form the same place. I have heard tthat the Leman is not really part of the fur era untell late 1830's but I might be wrong on that. Just wondering what you all think about both these guns for this era and for PC.



Another one I forgot about an 1803 Harpers Ferry

and the caliber I would chose would be atleast a .54 but would rather have a .58

 

[Zonie]

If it helps you, Henry E. Leman completed his training by Melchoir Fordney around 1829-1831. From 1831 thru 1834 he worked for George W. Tryon in Philadelphia.

Leman established his factory in Lancaster, Pa. in 1834 building guns, apparently for general sale to the public.

He received a Government contract on Nov. 7, 1837 which called for 500 guns for the Indians.
On Feb. 8, 1842 he began building Northwest Guns for the Indian Department and completed it on May 1, 1843.*

He died in 1887.

Although I have no documentation to support it, it would have been entirely possible for a Trapper during the mid to late 1830's to have obtained either a Leman gun that was built for the general public or even a gun from an Indian tribe who had received it from the Government.

* ref:American Gun Makers , L.D. Satterlee and Arcadi Gluckman. Otto Ulbrich Co, Inc., Buffalo, N.Y. 1945, p92

 

[Le Grand]

'Nut, Please forgive me for asking but what is a Leman Hawken? For a rifle to represent the late 1830s at rendezvous, the TVM Leman will do just fine. Get it with the 4-piece patch box, especially in flintlock, and no one can argue about it. That's what I was told.

 

[Huntnut]

I don't know why a type Leman Hawken it should have been Leman Plains rifle. Brain fart I guess.

 

[Extranero]

Most of the Lemans you see made nowadays are late 1850's at best. If you want a pre-1840 gun that would be widely representative from 1800-1840 go with some sort of late Lancaster pattern, brass-mounted with a brass 4-piece patchbox. These were the workhorse rifles of the fur trade. Look at Hanson's writings for documentation on that. Gunsmiths like Dickert, the Dickert-Gills, M&J Fordney, P. Gonter, the Gumpfs, Henry Gibbs, and the Henrys all turned out guns pre-1840 for the Western fur trade. They also had a large local clientele as well.

Sean

 

[tg]

Tradeguns are a good choice and most vendors put one out that is late enough for the RMFT, I don't think you can do much better than North Starr West for one of these, the owner knows his gus and can guide you and tell you the what and whys about these guns and any time period differences between the parts used on them.

 

[Le Grand]

That happens, kind'a like looking for a Ford Chevrolet...

 

[crockett]

Sean is a lot more knowledgeable about this topic than I am but I'll chime in a bit any way. Leman made a variety of rifles and the kind most folks are familiar with is the percussion "plains rifle" from the 1850's. The rifles in the 1837 Contract to the Indian Dept. were in all likelihood "Kentucky" type rifles that don't look anything like the later day percussion rifles. Now some Leman kits for the later day percussion rifle are also available in flintlock but that does not mean that type of Leman is similar to the pre-1840 Leman rifles.
On the 1803 U. S. Rifle- I think a handful may have been sold to the general public but certainly not common- to the best of my knowledge.
So...... the problem becomes " what kit or rifle fits in with a pre-1840 rifle" - and I take it we are talking about something a mountain man may have carried.
If you want a custom rifle you can have about anything you want but for a more reasonable cost the choices narrow down a bit. TOW sells a Dickert (sic?) that could be doable because the American Fur Company bought rifles from J. Dickert Gill who I think was a son in law of the original Dickert. These rifles would have had curly maple stocks, the daisy patch box, and wrist checkering- skip line I think. Varnish may have been used rather than a hand rubbed finish.

 

[Extranero]

If you are interested in Lemans, compare the available kits to the 1830's rifle that Whitedog posted on this forum recently. There is a pretty huge difference between the kits and the real thing of that period. You could do one, but it won't be canned. Same with Hawkens. The Don Stith J&S Hawken kit hits the very tail end of the western beaver trade. If you want to go earlier than that for a Hawken, you are pretty much on your own. Lancaster styled guns are a whole different game. There are lots of options and builders and they were everywhere in the West throughout the period. I've even seen a couple of Dickert and Dickert-Gill guns with New Mexico provenances that have been converted to percussion and heavily field repaired with rawhide wrappings. These guns were likely in use in the field until the 1860s or maybe later.

Sean

 

[Mike Burns]

Here's my Leman from TVM. I had it done in all iron and no patchbox. I don't know if it's PC, but that really doesn't matter to me. It's a beautiful rifle and shoots just as good as she looks. I've seen Lemans offered by other folks and they are all similar in their styles.

 

[Ralph Meisse]

Hi Mike,

Nice lookin gun. Where in Pa. you located? I'm in Monroe county area.

Big Ralph

 

[whitedog333]

If you are interested in Lemans, compare the available kits to the 1830's rifle that Whitedog posted on this forum recently. There is a pretty huge difference between the kits and the real thing of that period. You could do one, but it won't be canned. Same with Hawkens.

Sean

 

[whitedog333]

Like Sean said, the appearance of the rifle is certainly different from the configuration of the replica Leman rifle's that are currently on the market. I'm not any kind of an expert like the others on this site, but according to several who've shared their knowledge, my Leman rifle is representative of Henry Leman's earlier rifles that he started making for the local private sector which predated his later pattern that he made for his Govt. contracts that began in 1837. The timeline that Jim gave of Henry Leman's involvment in the gun business from him being an apprentis under Fordney and then working for Tryon and then starting his own business is important in understanding the transition of rifle designs that Leman went through. It makes sense that Henry Leman would've made his very first rifles just like he'd learned while an apprentiss under Fordney. These were the longer Pennsylvania longrifles with double set triggers and gooseneck hammers. The rifle that I own is apparantly one of these and probably predates his Govt. contracts that started in 1837. It's a very plain rifle with no ornamentation at all. As has been pointed out to me, it has features which suggest that it might've been an early attempt by Henry Leman to get in on the lucrative rifle trade that other makers were then enjoying. Anyway, if you haven't allready obtained your representative Leman rifle yet, you have the option of getting one that is of the Pennsylvania Longrifle type which is probably his earliest pattern, or you could get one like his later pattern. Mine has a 47" barrel which is plenty long enough for me even though I'm 5'11". It's total length is just a tad over 62". It is of 40 caliber with a rifle twist of one turn in the length of the bore. The barrel measures 15/16" across the outside from flat to flat. It feels remarkably steady when I hold it to my shoulder while sighting down the barrel.

 

[Dphar]

I'm looking at getting a few new guns around the first of the year, I had to sell some of my other rifles this year so I need to replase them. Thos time I'm going to flintlocks rifles and smooth bores. I'm probably going to get a Indian Tradegun .62 smoothbore. But i was wondering which of these other 2 rifles I'm looking at would be best for pre 1840 rendezvous. I looking at a Early or Late Lancaster from TVM and a Leman Hawken full stock form the same place. I have heard tthat the Leman is not really part of the fur era untell late 1830's but I might be wrong on that. Just wondering what you all think about both these guns for this era and for PC.



Another one I forgot about an 1803 Harpers Ferry

and the caliber I would chose would be atleast a .54 but would rather have a .58

If you want a 58 you don't want a Leman unless its just used as a prop. The Leman's were all stocked with squirrel rifle stocks and were pretty miserable in calibers over 45-50.

There were lots of Kentuckies of all vintages. A late period JP Beck will have a heavy stock and a bigger butt that will make 58 tolerable. Beck made "old school" Kentucky stock designs till his death in 1811. Would be good choice.
Just remember 50 and 54 were pretty standard in the west. The 54 would use the same 1/2 ounce ball as a *24 bore* trade gun. They were not 62. Rifle bores over 50-54 were rare in American rifles especially in Kentuckys which *I believe* were generally under 50 as *originally made*.
Honestly I believe that if you believe you need a caliber over 54 it needs to be much bigger, .62-.69. This demands an English style sporting rifle circa 1800-1840 *which is also correct* for the place and time. I believe the 1/2 stock Hawken came about as a result of the English guns that were available in St Louis during the Hawken rifle's "formative years".
Yes, John Baird had a 69 Caliber Hawken "Bodacious". But I know he did not shoot it a lot either and then with relatively light charges.

The other option is a J&S Hawken style rifle, no they don't look like the S Hawken style rifles. Jake apparently used a different stock pattern than Sam though there are some J&S guns that are "Samish" apparently done by Sam.
Full stock or 1/2 stock will work.

The J Henry Trade rifle is a good choice but I am less familiar with them than the Lemans.
If you just mist have a 58 then it needs the J&S or S Hawken stock with an early bigger buttplate. Which is not generally available. Try Don Stith he has some rifle kits he sells that are based on original rifles.
His 1792 contract rifle would do as well though the caliber is smaller than you want.
John Bairds "Fifteen Years in the Hawken Lode" has a good line drawing of the J&S Hawken that the Montana Historical Society owns. VERY nice rifle and I really like the stock design and have used it in the past. This would be an excellent choice as well but requires a builder who knows how to recreate.

If you can obtain a copy or get it from interlibrary loan "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" By Worman and Garivaglia has many photos of rifles used in the fur trade. To make a informed decision you really need to look through at LEAST chapter 4 of this book.
J.J. Henry (many, many used in the western fur trade) parts may be available from "The Rifle Shoppe". But they can be very slow in delivery.
But the parts are not cheap and the rifle, like the Hawken, needs to be made by someone who *knows how* to be right.

Dan