Problem with smoothbore barrel

[Grizzled Roberts]

Before I post this let me mention I have been shooting ball and shot out of smoothbores for over 30 years. Several months back I became an owner of an older used Pedersoli Charleyville. I shot 1816s on the US International Muzzle Loading team so I could not wait to get my hands on the earlier musket the 1816s were based on. I have shot it possibly 100 rounds in these months. I have used it in a couple of matches including Friendship last weekend. I shot the big musket on both sides of the road and on the Woodswalk. The last match I fired with the musket was the Trade Gun Aggrigate on Friday the 20th. This match is one of the older matches it is a costume match, it consists of five hard to hit shots at gongs, three clay pigeons ( shot ) and a knife and hawk throw. This is one of my favorite matches. I hit two of the steel targets and one bird and got both knife and hawk throws. This put me in the middle of the pack but this score of 50 was better than I did when I used my fowler last year!
I could not figure out how I missed my last shot at a bird. Everybody said my shot went all around the bird. On all sides. we are talking a monster dougnut!
So later in the afternoon I clean the musket. I put a tooth pick in the touch hole and pour in my solvent. I slosh it around a bit and pour out the mess. Then I put a wet patch on and ran it down the bore. As the jag went down I felt a small bulge in the barrel about 6 inches up from the breach. For round ball I use a fairly tight patch and ball combination I have to short start it and then tamp it down with the issue steel ramrod. For shot I cut my normal powder charge ( 75 grains
of 3F ) to 60 grains to avoid blowing a hole in my pattern. Had this bulge occured before my last shot I would have felt it pushing down the patched ball or wad column. It had to happen on my last shot with shot.
The two variables on my shooting and loading shot with the big musket. You can't have an accessory rod on the Trade Gun range so I have to seat the wads with the military button tip ramrod.
Also on advice from a friend I start with the musket at waist level and raise it only after the bird takes off.
#1. Could the thin over card wad have came off while loading with this ramrod?
#2. Could some of the shot have rolled forward
of the card wad?
#3. With me starting at "low house" when I raised
the barrel up to meet the bird, could some of the shot forward of the over powder wad have rolled back to the wrong side of the wad?
My big question, could the shot forward of the wad
form a small dam and hold back the underpowered
load long enough to cause the little bulge?

I have been shooting smoothbores for a long time
Over the years I have taken two different Brown Besses, an original 1816 and one Charleyville up to the trade gun range. Not counting several northwest guns and my current fowler. I have never even heard of anything like this before.
Have any of you ever had this happen to you or even heard of it before?
I do plan to find another barrel down the road
as I like shooting this piece. :hmm:

 

[poordevil]

I got rid of my Bess not too long ago, but while loading ball on a fiber wad, and pushing down, I could feel the load rise up some, I believe from trapped air. I would rise quite a bit. I began to load the the wad all the way down then the ball but had the uneasy feeling of the load seem to shift, rise? Maybe something like that happened to you? I quit the wad and went to patch.

P.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

I can pretty well assure all that both the round ball and fiber wad were well tamped down by the metal ramrod. The steel ramrod is marked at where the ball and shot column are seated. Air is pushed out the touch hole.

 

[Rebel]

I would bet on the ramrod tip. I had shot loads come loose when using the concave tip on a loading rod and the button tip could do the same thing. The wad gets folded around the tip of the rod and doesn't stay in place. Check it at home. Load a fiber wad, some shot and then load an overshot card wad. Then turn the barrel down and tap it a little and see if the shot rolls out. It is easy to pull the fiber wad with a ball or wad puller so you don't have the barrel plugged.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

If I can find another barrel I have a steel ramrod
with a flat face that I can use on this match. Otherwise it will just look good on my Rev War weapons display.
:thumbsup:

 

[Many Klatch]

Hey Grizz, as you know I have been shooting low gun for years and have never had a problem. Your thoughts on the use of the military ramrod is interesting. I have done it both ways with wooden ramrod in my Bess and the steel rod without any ill effects. Like you I make sure that everything is tamped down. The bulged barrel showed up after shooting shot. HMMM. I'll have to think on that one.

You would think that if the overshot wad moved, the shot would move with it, but if you are shooting at something above your head the shot should be resting on the overpowder or cushion wad, because it is round balls of lead and won't stay still for anyone.

Many Klatch

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

I don't have a clue Klatchmaster. I checked with the US Pedersoli parts dealers and a replacement barrel has to made special and shipped from Italy
at a cost of over 500 bucks. Which means this piece is now just a wall hanger and display piece.
I suppose next year when we duel I will be using Dreadnought!
:bow:

 

[Many Klatch]

Grizz, maybe we just suspend the .69 or over shoot and go to .60 Fowlers. Of course we would have to dress like gentlemen if we carry fowlers.

Many Klatch

 

[Parzifal]

Couldent you maybe get a domestic barell builder to make you one for cheaper then 500 + ??

 

[Britsmoothy]

So how much bigger do you think the bore is now?
It may still shoot!

Britsmoothy.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

The only problem with shooting it, with the bulge
the patch would come most likely come off the ball as it entered the open area or left the open area. I do not think a wad behind the ball/patch would help. It would be like a modern jug choke only 6 inches off the breach. I do have US barrel maker in mind should I decide to replace the barrel. But this will be a while off at any rate. I have other smoothbores to shoot this one looks great on my Rev War Firelocks display rack, which I set up from time to time at the Dog and Pony Shows around here. ( what we call historical camps open to the public with no live shooting )

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Manyklatch, the last time we shot our fowlers we did not have to dress up any!!!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Even so if the bulg ain't to long I would consider trying it (or wide). I had a 22 with a bulge once, a remy pump, it shot tighter groups after it got the bulge than before!

Britsmoothy.

 

[Pearson]

Try Googling Whitacre Machine Co. He can probably make you a barrel to fit for something like $250.
Mike

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Also on advice from a friend I start with the musket at waist level and raise it only after the bird takes off.

You sure it was a friend that told you to do that or your competition? :rotf:

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Actually it was Manyklatch a Friend and competitor! Normally I shoot 3 shots at 3 clay birds a year ( the trade gun match at Friendship )
Now that I am retired this sum will double to 6 birds a year! The rest of the time I am a rifle shooter and a round ball shooter with a smoothbore. When I take my 3 shots a year... I aim
like I'm shooting a rifle. Manyklatches advice about starting from the "Low House" position has increased my shot load accuracy. I can't aim from this position so I have to point and lead just like I know what I am doing! I think this is a common fix for rifle shooters when they have to shoot shot out of their smoothbores! It sure worked for me!! :thumbsup:

 

[Many Klatch]

I found years ago that I have shot rifle and roundball from smoothbores for so long that I am too deliberate when shooting shotguns. I find that if I start from the Low Gun position, then I am too busy mounting the gun, finding the bird and shooting to worry about correct leads. Besides, I have never been bird hunting with the gun at my shoulder all day. I always considered skeet and trap to be practice for hunting, not an end in itself.

I may not shoot 25 out of 25 at skeet, but I get all the birds that fly when hunting.

Many Klatch

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I found years ago that I have shot rifle and roundball from smoothbores for so long that I am too deliberate when shooting shotguns. I find that if I start from the Low Gun position, then I am too busy mounting the gun, finding the bird and shooting to worry about correct leads.

I agree. grzrob said he started with the gun at his waist though. I assume he means at his belt line and that is not low gun but a disadvantage. One problem with low gun for an inexperienced shooter (shotgun)is mounting the gun. They will always try to mount the gun then aim. Most bird hunters do this also. A solid gun mount requires many repetitons to allow the mount and move to the target to be one motion.

I usualy cut the difference with my students who have a rifle/pistol background and start them with a "half-mount". This allows them to mount the gun on the shoulder but have their head all the way off the stock. Head is turned to where they first see the bird as a blur, muzzle just before where the bird is seen sharply and a little under the flight line. This keeps from the tendancy to aim while training to focus 100% on the target.

For someone who has not taken the time to perfect a good gun mount and move, the half mount seems to create more hits percentage wise.

Besides, I have never been bird hunting with the gun at my shoulder all day.

Me either. That's why I always shoot low gun unless it's a trap style of going away target. Of course if it's a going away bird with feathers then I start from low gun also.

I have never been bird hunting with the gun at my shoulder all day. I always considered skeet and trap to be practice for hunting, not an end in itself.

Well I have always considered trap and skeet nothing but a boring repetitious practice for competition sporting clays (a much different and tougher animal than most social sporting clays courses). I have seen many bird hunters who were known always to shoot their bag limit humbled on a competition sporting course. I was one of them. :redface:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I know a now retired instructor who taught a heads up mounting technique for shotgun shooting. He has his students looking several inches over the barrels of the shotgun, with the rib and front sight in the lower peripheral vision, but never actually on the clay or bird. The stock is on the shoulder, but not against the cheek.

This, of course, is Heresy of the Highest Order with tradtional Shotgun shooting instructors. We all know that the cheek is the " rear sight " of the gun, etc.

His explanation was that this taught new shooters the fastest to look at the target, rather than the front sight on a shotgun when shooting moving targets.

I was taught a similar technique in shooting combat pistol in very rapid fire, an double taps. By looking over the sights of my pistol, and not at them, recoil became a non-issue, and the disturbed sight picture caused by the cycling of the slide went unnoticed. We were aiming at the target by focusing on the target- not the front sight, while using the sights to allow us to align the barrel with our line of sight.

Most shotgun shooters DO NOT KNOW they are suppose to focus on the target, NOT the front sight. That, and slapping the trigger are 2 of 3 major difference between shooting rifles and shotguns.( The 3rd, is foot placement.)

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Now that I think about it, I am too fat to have the gun at belt level! I would never get it around my belly in time to make the shot! I went through the motions in the living room and the gun actually rests on top of my pot, perhaps 5 inches over the top of my belly button. Several years ago a couple of the big time shot shooters
got tired of me aiming my musket like a rifle
( on the Trade Gun match ) and showed me the proper stance, the proper footing, how to lean into the shot to effect the follow through.
All that accomplished was to make me look better
when I missed! :rotf: I have not Dove hunted in many years, I only fire shot at the rendezvous and Friendship. This year may add up to 9 shots.
I guess I am a hard head and am not willing to add anything to my slate that may distract from my rifle and round ball smoothbore shooting. I do not want a shotgun program to jump in when I am trying to hit a 4 foot bear at 200 yards! So I have to use a gimmic like low house to hit the birds.
So far this year I have shot 85 roundballs in competition and 6 clay birds with shot. I hit 3 out of the six. The last shot was the one that messed up the barrel, it also made a very weird pattern that left a big hole in the center, where the bird was. I messed up my annual clay bird average and my barrel on the same shot!
I will be shooting my .54 Fowler the rest of the year. It shoots better but just aint as much fun
as the big military muskets!!! :thumbsup: