Prone long rifle

[coloradoclyde]

One problem that arises with people trying to shoot prone, is that they try to shoot a ML like a modern gun and place the butt tight into the shoulder.....the curved butt plate belongs out on the arm......Even more so when shooting prone.

The worst ever gun that I shot prone...and this includes me shooting a 50 BMG prone.....
Was a Enfield Musketoon with a .58 mini ball and an 80 grain charge. The butt plate on the gun was dead flat and squared off at about 90 degrees with a very straight stock....

I fired 3 shots and winced in pain after every shot...after the third shot I put the gun away and never fired it prone again.

 

[Artificer]

The Enfield Minie Rifle/Musket/Musketoon stock is much more punishing than the American Springfield stock, even when one sticks to standard service loads of the Minie ball and 60 grains of FFg. The Springfield style stock also is much easier on the shoulder to shoot prone or any other position.

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

Indeed!...even offhand the gun is not a joy to shoot....

 

[Artificer]

It is MUCH worse when shooting a 40 round cartridge box full of cartridges in period correct uniform and with minie balls and 60 grains of FFg. I will NEVER do that again. :redface: :haha:

Gus

 

[Gene L]

Gene, you say in your post that your rifle is only shot 1% of the time, the rest of the time it's a wall hanger. Maybe you should not have used the word "definitely" to describe your opinion.

I've taken, 2 turkey (one properly sling supported and one with the support hand between my field bag and the front stock), a few predators, and a couple woodchucks from prone. I generally prefer a sitting position if there's time or kneeling if the shot is much past 20 yards and time or terrain won't allow sitting.

Raedwald, I wouldn't think the crescent buttplate would be great for prone shooting, but haven't tried it. See if you can borrow a gun or guns and at least get in the position, if not shoot them, and see how they feel.

No, I didn't say my rifles spent 1% of the time on the range, I believe I said ".01%" of the time on the range. Is that important?

What I was taught in the Army was a proper sling supported rifle (back in M 14 days) was with the military sling cinched up so tight your fingers went numb. Not very tactical, but very good for shooting targets.

About the same with the sitting position as I remember it. Not the kneeling position, as I remember it.

Or the standing position.

The worst kicking gun I've ever shot was a smoothbore (.69 Caliber?) musket owned by a Civil War Reenactor buddy of mine. I don't know the charge, but it was painful.

 

[Rifleman1776]

being the most stable position

I have had discussions about this with a friend who is retired Navy and was on the rifle team. (Sailors shoot rifles? :shocked2: ). Ennyhow, when I try/tried to shoot prone my elbows would roll around like they were on swivel casters. Nuttin' stable about that position for me. :td:

 

[azmntman]

My belly rocks me to and fro at ignition when prone :shocked2: . Don't like to get sea sick shootin so I use a tree to stabilize in the field and the corolla door frame at the "range" (woods). No tree? I'm real good at the sitting position with just above/below the elbows on the knees.

 

[Cowboy]

I agree! The prone position is the most stable position and should be used at every opportunity, terrain, physical ability dictating of course. The military qualifies from the prone position. Yes, 98 to 99% of snipers fire from the prone position and is the most desired position to fire from. Also if someone is trying to take your life on the battle field, the smaller target you are the better chance of survival. There were times I could hide behind a pack of cigarettes when I had to. The military does not use the prone position as a confidence builder as was mentioned earlier, but rather as a prefered shooting position when ever it is possible. Respectfully, cowboys1062.

 

[Gene L]

Our definition of the "prone" may differ. I believe NRA sanctioned matches define it as supported only with the sling. Prone is indeed very stable. We were taught it's as stable as a sandbagged position when used with a very tight military sling. I don't know about modern snipers, but the ones I saw (American Sniper movie) were sandbagged in. They were laying down, of course, but what I saw was not technically not the "prone." It's not something you'd want to do in shirt-sleeves, rough on the elbows. Prone with the sling can't be maintained for a long period of time; your fingers will fall off.

In addition to Basic and AIT, I used the prone position a lot when shooting at targets with the M 21 rifle. This was back in 1982 or so when as a LEO I attended the "Counter-sniper" course. It was half military/half LEOs. Four officers from my agency went at various times. I was a sniper on the SWAT team from our small area of Athens, GA. We qualified in the Counter-sniper course from the prone position, unsupported by anything but the sling, the only time I can remember ever qualifying with it.

When I qualified with an M 14 back in 1967, we fired from the "Fox hole supported" position, not the prone. I have no idea how they qualify now.

Snipers in the military can usually choose their position, and if it's on high ground with an unobstructed view, that's the way to go. The average grunt with an M 4 is not going to be able to do that. In fact, I'm not sure the Army still issues slings rather than carrying straps. Can't make a proper sling with a strap.

When I was in Viet Nam, three wars ago, almost all our ops were in jungle, grass, or rice patties. My platoon sniper occasionally got to use an elevated position but not typically. You're laying in a rice patty, the dikes make it all but impossible to get into the prone. And the dikes furnish cover if not concealment.

Lying down and shooting with the fore end supported, like chunk shooting, isn't my idea of "prone." Your definition may vary, of course.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I believe NRA sanctioned matches define it as supported only with the sling.

The NRA does not sanction muzzleloader shoots....
And competitive shooting with muzzleloaders predates the NRA.
The NRA is also outside the forums time parameters.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Our definition of the "prone" may differ. I believe NRA sanctioned matches define it as supported only with the sling. Prone is indeed very stable. We were taught it's as stable as a sandbagged position when used with a very tight military sling. I don't know about modern snipers, but the ones I saw (American Sniper movie) were sandbagged in. They were laying down, of course, but what I saw was not technically not the "prone." It's not something you'd want to do in shirt-sleeves, rough on the elbows. Prone with the sling can't be maintained for a long period of time; your fingers will fall off.

In addition to Basic and AIT, I used the prone position a lot when shooting at targets with the M 21 rifle. This was back in 1982 or so when as a LEO I attended the "Counter-sniper" course. It was half military/half LEOs. Four officers from my agency went at various times. I was a sniper on the SWAT team from our small area of Athens, GA. We qualified in the Counter-sniper course from the prone position, unsupported by anything but the sling, the only time I can remember ever qualifying with it.

When I qualified with an M 14 back in 1967, we fired from the "Fox hole supported" position, not the prone. I have no idea how they qualify now.

Snipers in the military can usually choose their position, and if it's on high ground with an unobstructed view, that's the way to go. The average grunt with an M 4 is not going to be able to do that. In fact, I'm not sure the Army still issues slings rather than carrying straps. Can't make a proper sling with a strap.

When I was in Viet Nam, three wars ago, almost all our ops were in jungle, grass, or rice patties. My platoon sniper occasionally got to use an elevated position but not typically. You're laying in a rice patty, the dikes make it all but impossible to get into the prone. And the dikes furnish cover if not concealment.

Lying down and shooting with the fore end supported, like chunk shooting, isn't my idea of "prone." Your definition may vary, of course.

Nothing in your post is relevant to muzzleloaders or this forum. ff

 

[Artificer]

I believe NRA sanctioned matches define it as supported only with the sling.

The NRA does not sanction muzzleloader shoots....
And competitive shooting with muzzleloaders predates the NRA.
The NRA is also outside the forums time parameters.

The NRA does indeed sanction black powder rifle/pistol/shotgun matches, though I agree it is outside the purview of this forum.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Unless they have changed the rules significantly in the last few years, and it does not look like they have, sling usage in MLAIC competition is restricted to slings that were available during the black powder era. So they are more like carrying straps than say the M1905 leather sling.

When used, the slings are usually wrapped around the supporting arm for tension, not unlike what we were taught as "the hasty sling" years ago in the military.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

being the most stable position

I have had discussions about this with a friend who is retired Navy and was on the rifle team. (Sailors shoot rifles? :shocked2: ). Ennyhow, when I try/tried to shoot prone my elbows would roll around like they were on swivel casters. Nuttin' stable about that position for me. :td:

Sure, a lot of Sailors shoot rifles, including some HUGE ones up to 16 inch. :wink:

Have to admit I had similar thoughts when I first saw the Navy Rifle Team show up for matches at Quantico in the early 70's, though. :wink:

Bare elbows will roll on the ground a lot more than if you wear even a light jacket. The standard military Utility or BDU shirts have just enough thickness to help control the elbows from slipping. The material is thicker than a blue denim work shirt, but not a whole lot thicker. Most any kind of a hunting coat is plenty thick enough, as well.

Now if the grass or whatever is on the ground is real slick, then nothing much that muzzle loading shooters normally hunt with will help keep the elbows from slipping.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Oh, BTW, the Executive Secretary of the NRA, Jim Land; accompanied the US International Muzzle Loading Team to the World Championships at Wedgnock, UK in 1998 as the Team Coach. Jim had been an NSSA shooter for many years prior to that.

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

The NRA does indeed sanction black powder rifle/pistol/shotgun matches, though I agree it is outside the purview of this forum.

Gus

Thank you for correcting me....I should have been more specific.. :hatsoff:

 

[Gene L]

I apologize for my off-topic posts and behavior in general. Kind of hard to stay on-topic since this is the first ML forum I've been on.

I'll be less sensitive in the future.

 

[coloradoclyde]

When your insult is no longer visible, I will accept your apology.

 

[Gene L]

Do as you please. I was apologizing to the board, not necessarily to you individually. You just happened to be the last on the thread.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Oh Dear.
I am well used to recoil and, in larger bores (apologies for the OT) use service charges in musket, Snider and Martini Henry so .32 recoil is not any issue for me.
All I wanted was to get an opinion from anyone who had actually used this configuration to help me decide if I will pursue my idea. I am well aware of the competition rules and routinely shoot prone, except for the musket of course.
But don't concern yourselves about my question. Do feel free to continue your exchanges of opinion on the subjects you prefer.