Proof Hawken made a flint

[rhart]

As you like facts, wasn’t the percussion cap patented in 1807, with caplock British guns being made in the Regency Era (1811-1820)? When did Jake and Sam start their business?

Do you know who commissioned the earliest documented J and S gun? It was for W H Ashley. And it’s ignition system was?? The year was 1823. So should this be considered what we call a Hawken Rifle Plains Rifle? Or just a gun made by Jake and Sam?

And just for discussion, if Jake’s and Sam’s great great great Uncle Tonoose back in Europe made a matchlock rifle before his relatives came to North America, would that be considered the first Hawken?

Glad you mentioned the Ashley Hawken. For everyone's consideration a quote from Bob Woodfill's article in NMLRA Blast's archives: "A fourth, and often unmentioned feature of the Ashley Hawken, is that it was a flintlock. Irrespective as to when the percussion cap was originally invented in Europe, they were first seen on the east coast in 1825/26, and later first advertised for sale in St. Louis in 1831. The Ashley Hawken predated the introduction of the percussion cap in the St. Louis area, and it was a flint ignition rifle." Not only did it predate the introduction of percussion caps to the St. Louis area, it predated the percussion caps to the East Coast since the Ashley Hawken was built in 1822/23...

 

[rhart]

The fact that there where probably hundreds of thousands of ML produced as a whole in the 18-19 century, and less than 1% survived, and that the J&S Hawken only would have represented less than 1% of all ML made and only a handful of early ones would have been flint and that most if not all went out west where they were used, abused, lost stolen, its not unreasonable that none survived,

Not to mention that most surviving flintlock models were eventually converted to percussion - probably by the Hawken brothers themselves. And, if the Hawken brothers converted their own flintlock guns to percussion they could have replaced the entire lock with locks from the same manufacturer and maybe even new barrels so as to leave little if any evidence of having been flintlock.

 

[HighUintas]

Here's a little insight into the whereabouts of many rifles from the 1800s.

He also mentions a couple times in this book that the Hawken rifles were in the best on the plains.... Ruxton didn't necessarily make this up even though his book was fictional.

There's still no undebatable proof that a J&S Hawken rifle was made in StL. Although... The Ashley rifle likely would have been

 

[SDSmlf]

There's still no undebatable proof that a J&S Hawken rifle was made in StL. Although... The Ashley rifle likely would have been

The reason I mentioned the Ashley gun was because in 1882 Sam was quoted as saying he and Jake supplied the gun to Ashley, which was made after both brothers setup shop in St. Louis.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I saw pictures many years ago somewhere of a Hawken rifle that appeared to be a conversion from flint. The gun looked like a Appalachia Mountain rifle except it had a typical early Hawken scroll trigger guard on it. I personally don't think they were making flint 1/2 stocks. Fullstock flint guns were definitely made. Cap locks didn't catch on in America as fast as they did in England.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The reason I mentioned the Ashley gun was because in 1882 Sam was quoted as saying he and Jake supplied the gun to Ashley, which was made after both brothers setup shop in St. Louis.

There was the newspaper interview. Note that Jake was partnered with John Lakenan in 1822 and it was not until 1825 that Jake and Sam established their partnership. About 1940 there was a radio drama and recording that dramatized the meeting of Jake, Sam and Ashley. In the radio drama it fictionalized the meeting as Ashley was preparing for his western expedition. He was asking about what kind of rifle he needed and either Sam or Jake suggested that they would be happy to make a rifle for him. That seems to be most of the provenance for the Ashley Hawken. There was a rifle that was purported to be the Ashley Hawken. It had a back action percussion lock from about 1850 or later. That rifle has since been lost.

 

[tenngun]

It is a very well-known fact that members of the Hawken family made flint rifles and I don't think it was ever disputed. The only questions I have ever seen are, were the fully developed plains style rifles made by the Hawkens ever made in flint, or in full stock.

They made full stock for the western trade. And sold for $.50 cheaper than their half stock. Flint it seems no. It seems there were folks checking all the Saint Louis Hawken records. I understand there were no flint locks bought by their shop.
Although half’s were real popular in almost all guns full stocks were common up until after the WBTS. I don’t know how late they made full stocks.

 

[rhart]

There was the newspaper interview. Note that Jake was partnered with John Lakenan in 1822 and it was not until 1825 that Jake and Sam established their partnership. About 1940 there was a radio drama and recording that dramatized the meeting of Jake, Sam and Ashley. In the radio drama it fictionalized the meeting as Ashley was preparing for his western expedition. He was asking about what kind of rifle he needed and either Sam or Jake suggested that they would be happy to make a rifle for him. That seems to be most of the provenance for the Ashley Hawken. There was a rifle that was purported to be the Ashley Hawken. It had a back action percussion lock from about 1850 or later. That rifle has since been lost.

Makes one wonder how Samuel got pulled into the making of the Ashley rifle since Jacob and Lakenan were 'partners' (strange how Woodfill only mentions that Jacob and Lakenan shared a log cabin - not that they were partners [at least in part 1 of his article]). Maybe a lack of production capacity resulted in contracting out at least some of the work to Samuel Hawken's shop. Makes sense that Jacob and Lakenan were partners since they had worked together at the Harper's Ferry arsenal and Sam and Jake partnered up almost immediately after Lakenan died in 1825.

 

[SDSmlf]

There was the newspaper interview. Note that Jake was partnered with John Lakenan in 1822 and it was not until 1825 that Jake and Sam established their partnership. About 1940 there was a radio drama and recording that dramatized the meeting of Jake, Sam and Ashley. In the radio drama it fictionalized the meeting as Ashley was preparing for his western expedition. He was asking about what kind of rifle he needed and either Sam or Jake suggested that they would be happy to make a rifle for him. That seems to be most of the provenance for the Ashley Hawken. There was a rifle that was purported to be the Ashley Hawken. It had a back action percussion lock from about 1850 or later. That rifle has since been lost.

You are correct in that Jake and Lakenan were reported to partners until Lakenan’s death, then in 1825 Jake and Sam became partners. I find it interesting that most agree the Hawken (and Lakenan) shop made the gun, likely ordered over the winter of 1822/1823. Jake reportedly got to St. Louis in 1819, Sam in June of 1822. At the age of 90, Sam stated per the newspaper interview that ‘we’ provided Ashley’s gun and describe details of the gun.

So we have Jake, Sam, Ashley (and Lakenan) in St. Louis during the winter of 1822/1823 when the gun was supposedly commissioned. Then in 1882 Sam states in the newspaper interview that ‘we supplied the gun to Ashley’. The gun would be around 200 years old today and none of us were there, though it would seem Sam was.

 

[beardedhorse]

John Brown (not the abolitionist who attacked Harper's Ferry) was in the Mormon army and used a .66 caliber full stock percussion Hawken rifle against the U.S. army traveling through a canyon going to Salt Lake City. Photo of he and his rifle are in a book compiled by Craig Boddington. Bill Dawson of Alaska (Cooper's Landing?) has a Hawken rifle converted from flint to percussion. There is a percussion rifle in the Museum of the Fur Trade collection in Chadron, Nebraska made by a Hawken whose first name was neither Jacob or Samuel. Jim Gordon's museum has some original percussion Hawken rifles I had the privilege to examine and handle that were not half stock. Bob Woodfill's recent book The Hawken Rifle - Evolution from 1822-1870 has many original rifles in it. It was published by the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association and out of print and hard to find used. About $50.00 new. Would love to get my hands on a copy. I would not use the movie Jeremiah Johnson starring Robert Redford as a reliable source for Liver Eatin John Johnston's life or rifle. A half stock percussion St. Louis made Hawken and a Bowie knife of his are in the Cody, Wyoming Buffalo Bill Museum. I would go beyond Vardis Fisher's Mountain Man nor Raymond Thorp's Crow Killer books for better information on John Johnston who was re interred from a California cemetery to a final resting place in Bob Edgar's Old Town village outside of Cody. There was a nephew of either Sam or Jake who was an actual mountain man trapper in the Rockies. He may have done some gunsmithing at Bent's Old Fort where a full stock flint rifle was converted to a half stock percussion called Old Blackfoot. It was traded in full stock for a shotgun by William Bent. Old Blackfoot was used as a target rifle there, once was owned by King Hussein of Jordan and mentioned and pictured in a book by Milton Von Damm. The .69 caliber super Hawken made for William Ashley to shoot uphill from a keelboat on the Missouri River was recalled by Sam Hawken when he was very old. There is no finite evidence of what it looks like and I haven't seen conclusive documentation of it being flint, full stock or half stock. Would have been made in the 1820's and you should not assume it must be a flinter.

 

[rhart]

Picture of a 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle shown below. One can certainly see the influence it had on the half-stock Hawken later made famous by Jacob and Samuel Hawken.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

There was the newspaper interview. Note that Jake was partnered with John Lakenan in 1822 and it was not until 1825 that Jake and Sam established their partnership. About 1940 there was a radio drama and recording that dramatized the meeting of Jake, Sam and Ashley. In the radio drama it fictionalized the meeting as Ashley was preparing for his western expedition. He was asking about what kind of rifle he needed and either Sam or Jake suggested that they would be happy to make a rifle for him. That seems to be most of the provenance for the Ashley Hawken. There was a rifle that was purported to be the Ashley Hawken. It had a back action percussion lock from about 1850 or later. That rifle has since been lost.

Picture of a 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle shown below. One can certainly see the influence it had on the half-stock Hawken later made famous by Jacob and Samuel Hawken.

View attachment 201938

I'm not seeing it.

 

[Grenadier1758]

One can kind of, sort of see similarities of caliber and barrel length. The Hawken Plains Rifles have more similarities to the scroll guard English half stock sporting rifles. The Hawken Brothers altered the English rifle by using double set triggers, chambered breeches, hooked breeches, and percussion locks. Both the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle and the English scroll guard half stock rifles would have been familiar to the Maryland trained Hawken brothers.

 

[rhart]

One can kind of, sort of see similarities of caliber and barrel length. The Hawken Plains Rifles have more similarities to the scroll guard English half stock sporting rifles. The Hawken Brothers altered the English rifle by using double set triggers, chambered breeches, hooked breeches, and percussion locks. Both the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle and the English scroll guard half stock rifles would have been familiar to the Maryland trained Hawken brothers.

I can see where the Harper's Ferry Rifle was obviously familiar to both Jacob Hawken and his partner Lakenan since both worked together at the Harper's Ferry Arsenal for many years, but I'm not sure how they would have been as intimately exposed to the English sporting rifles (except in their capacity as gunsmiths I suppose?). With a little imagination one can see where the Hawken brothers melded the larger caliber, and half-stock configuration of the very familiar (to at least one of them) Harper's Ferry Rifle with the double set triggers and octagonal barrel of the American Long Rifle. Of course one can also see some of the English sporting rifle influence as well (I'm sure they did their research when they set out to design their rifle).
This is all just my opinion of course, but it seems in-your-face logical to me given Jacob's historical background working for about 10-years at Harper's Ferry building/repairing Harper's Ferry Rifles on a daily basis - in addition to his training at his father's side in Maryland.

 

[MDHunter]

Very interesting conversation.
I’m curious if gunsmiths like the Hawken brothers visited other gunsmith shops along their travels? Were gunsmith’s secretive? I’m sure they learned about others guns when they were asked to repair one from another maker. Or did they talk latest and greatest technology with each other? I know to some extent they were competitive but curious how much builders interacted with each other.

 

[rhart]

Very interesting conversation.
I’m curious if gunsmiths like the Hawken brothers visited other gunsmith shops along their travels? Were gunsmith’s secretive? I’m sure they learned about others guns when they were asked to repair one from another maker. Or did they talk latest and greatest technology with each other? I know to some extent they were competitive but curious how much builders interacted with each other.

Good question, one I'd be interested in knowing the answer to myself. I've got a feeling most of them were kind of secretive at least as far as outsiders/competitors go - I'm sure the Hawken family didn't keep many trade secrets from each other though. One clue might be found in apprentice contracts if any exist and if the contract specifies penalties for telling of trade secrets.

I believe that occasionally they would go to work for other gun smiths or gun makers and they would probably pick up little tidbits of information as well as impart some knowledge inadvertently (or otherwise).

 

[rhart]

Below: 16 Bore East India Company Flintlock Rifle for Hyderabad State Early 19th Century. Note ‘English scroll’ trigger guard (looks almost identical to many Hawken rifles) seems to me to be more ergonomic than many trigger guards seen on American Long Rifles which effectively thicken the wrist significantly of the long rifle. Is this the singular major contribution of the 'English sporting rifle' to the Hawken rifle design? Basically, the Harper's Ferry rifle trigger guard would be the same if it was extended an inch or so and curled under toward the stock - no big design feat.