Proof or test load

[dooltubes]

What would be a good test load for an ancient damascus .58 rifle that only weighs about five pounds? I'm thinking I will never shoot more than an 80 grain charge of FFg in it.
Would you feel safe after loading a heavy Minie and loading with 100 grains or should I go higher? I generally just stick the butt in an old tire, tie the barrel to the other side, and shoot it from inside the house (I live in a rural area) with a string. Better ways to do this? I should mention that I have rethreaded and replaced the nipples and the barrel and breechblocks look in good shape.

 

[RedFeather]

Before you do anything, what have you got there? Is this a rifled double-rifle or smoothbore like a .58 shotgun? My rule of thumb on true damascus barrels is that they are never safe. Reason is, they are made from braided steel and iron strips. The iron is much more prone to corrosion that the steel, so weak spots can develope in the welds, especially after sitting for a hundred plus years. These imperfections are very difficult to detect. It is recommened for damascus cartridge guns to have the tubes fitted with liners, for example, even though the owner wants to use black powder shells. Since your's weighs only five pounds (man, those barrels must be thin!!!), you could see about dropping in a couple of liners. Have you de-breeched it? You mention the plug(s) looked good. If so, relining won't be too hard.

On proof charges, you can't simply up an 80 grain load to 100, even though you will "never" use more than 80 grains. People do slip up now and again and drop double charges down bore. Then your "proof" load is actually 60 grains short. Commerical proof powders, such as the Italian BP proof, are different than what you buy off the shelf. I believe they are even hotter.

If your gun has some value, and it sounds as if it does, you may want to skip the tire test. At best, you may end up with a blown antique. At worst, it may survive only to fail while you are using it. No slam intended here.

RedFeather

 

[jaybeach]

:agree: what redfeather said. Any gun with damascus barrel(s) that you are considering shooting should be checked out by a good gunsmith first (IMO). Many times, the best decision is to either not fire it at all, or (per redfeather's suggestion) reline the barrels.

:results:

 

[robinghewitt]

Minie ball rifles weren't usually damascene, over here they were made from Marshall's iron, seam welded and tough stuff.

Do you have some reason to doubt it? I have never had any qualms about shooting old rifles, if the bore hasn't rotted out to relic status I don't think you have the slightest thing to worry about.

:RO:

 

Unless a gunsmith has X-ray and magnaflux equipment he can tell you nothing about the welds in a tube.

Any reputable smith, without the equipment, will tell you not to shoot the gun.

:imo:

 

[roundball]

Unless a gunsmith has X-ray and magnaflux equipment he can tell you nothing about the welds in a tube.

Any reputable smith, without the equipment, will tell you not to shoot the gun.

:imo:

Probably a lot take that position from a liability point of view..."gosh, you told me it was OK to shoot it and it blew up...you owe me a million dollars for Grandpa's old antique shotgun"

 

Weight has me bothered here somewhat or is this 5 LBS just the barrel ?
Any gunsmith will tell you not to shoot Damascus barrels why,,,,,,,, can we say liability here

 

[RedFeather]

I'm only passing on what was relayed to me. I can't tell you to shoot it or not shoot it. As for the "go ahead and shoot it, it's perfectly safe" school, anyone who gives an unqualified ok on an unseen gun 3,000 miles away does not speak with authority. Get that thing checked out before and after any proofing. Some guns will survive a proof - once. Good luck. By the way, I think we are all curious as to what you have there. A five pound double rifle in .58 would be interesting, if not painful.

 

[Slamfire]

Are you sure it really is damascus? Some guns were surface patterned to look like the more desirable damascus, and are made from fluid steel. That doesn't mean it is safe to shoot. :nono:

 

I'm only passing on what was relayed to me. I can't tell you to shoot it or not shoot it. As for the "go ahead and shoot it, it's perfectly safe" school, anyone who gives an unqualified ok on an unseen gun 3,000 miles away does not speak with authority. Get that thing checked out before and after any proofing. Some guns will survive a proof - once. Good luck. By the way, I think we are all curious as to what you have there. A five pound double rifle in .58 would be interesting, if not painful.

true words have never been spoken and that applies to all barrels and all guns .
see you in the end are the one to decide for yourself . anyone who tells ya to load her up you should suspect , remeber its not their face , hand or life thats on the line but yours .

 

[dooltubes]

OK thanks guys. I just guessed at the weight...I just weighed it and its closer to 7 lbs. Its a high quality Janeck (Dresden, Saxony) buchesflinte (side by side shotgun/rifle) of .58 rifled and .58 (24 ga)smoothbored, 28 inch barrels. Platinum vents, gold inlays and adjustable (for windage) front and rear sights. Email me privately for a scan.

I planned to have shotgun loaded with bismuth shot for upland gamebirds while I hunted deer with the rifle. The barrels ring true and are of a fairly complex damascus pattern, not simple twist. The 8-groove rifling is good and about one turn in 27 inches, suggesting that it be fed conicals. I have shot damascus muzzleloaders for nearly 50 years and have never had any problems. I thought I might try the lightweight .58 skirmish Minies for openers.

 

[dooltubes]

I should have mentioned that the breech plugs, likely removed for the first time after manufacture, are in excellent condition, showing shiny threads and no flaws under high magnification after cleaning. Barrel thickness at the breech is about 3/16-1/4" and no flaws seen.

 

well in all fairness DT its not what you can see but what you cant . Some times in the welding
process there is pockets , over times these pockets make a week spot . I know of one old SXS that gets regularly shot that has such a pocket that has became a hole about mid point of one barrel . Shoots great yet has a whistle and a smoke jet every time LMAO.
Fine Damascus still has a twist and is welded with weaker steel to make the barrels. Fine just means more rod were used to make the Damascus pattern in flat stock before its wrapped and welded into a barrel .

I for one suspect all barrels , I learned long ago even a new one can fail with a light load , some subscribe to the line of thought that a heavy proof load can weaken a barrel and cause it to fail later. I can see that however if its going to fail I want it to fail during the test of 160 grain the when I have it at me shoulder with 80 .. I have a pedersoli barrel right now with an acorn at 18 inches from the muzzle , cause on the 3rd round of a 70 grain load .
But as I said you have to use reason as the main problem is that all rules do not hold true 100% of the time .

realize that what folks are really saying is be carful what ever you do

 

[RedFeather]

Now THAT sounds like an interesting rifle! Platinum plugs are a hallmark of quality. I still would feel touchy about the barrels, but it is up to you. Gutsy of you to pull those breech plugs. My hat's off to you, sir! If you feel you want to shoot it, then the short minnies would be my bet, although a 1:27 twist argues a l-o-n-g conical. In .58, this is going to weigh some. Try the minnies first, but I wouldn't push them with too high a load. Is the right barrel thick or thin? Being damascus, it won't, as a rule, be as resilient as fluid steel. One thing to watch, especially with minnies, is to be sure your load does not shift when shooting the shot barrel. That's what causes the wallnuts or burst barrels. (I hpe I;m not preaching to the choir.) It would be a pure shame to see a gun like that ruined, much less the shooter. Those European guns are rather neat in that their style of shooting was more close range and at smaller game. I love the early stalkers, be they muzzle loader or later cartridge. Beautiful styling.

RedFeather

 

[Rat]

Remember that a fast twist will shoot both long and short bullets well, whereas a slow twist will require a short, light bullet, or ball. In other words, even though his fast twist was probably designed for a long bullet, the fast twist does not REQUIRE a long bullet...it should shoot a short, light bullet (realitivly speaking...a "light" bullet in a .58 is still about 450 grains more or less!!!) just as well.

A understabilized bullet will usually shoot poorly, but there's pretty much no such thing as "overstabilizing" a bullet.

A short, light bullet, (realitivly speaking) will go a long ways towards keeping pressures down. Personally I'd experiment with both REAL's and "BALLETTS" before trying a minnie.

And the REAL's are "in the mail" by the way...should be there soon.

:thumbsup:

Rat

 

[dooltubes]

Thanks again guys. Wow! Shooting a barrel with a hole in it is a new one on me! However, I shoot fireworks and have an 8" steel gun with three .223 bullet holes in it. The holes do not seem to affect the height of the shells at all, and with these loose-fitting devices much gas is above the shell before it even starts to move up the tube.

 

[robinghewitt]

anyone who gives an unqualified ok on an unseen gun 3,000 miles away does not speak with authority.

:huh: :what:

Perhaps there is such a thing as being too careful, this gun sounds top quality and in good condition, I'd feel more at risk driving to the range than shooting it, where is the problem? ::

 

[Rat]

Yikes...I have an old '48 Dodge, that must be extremely dangerous to drive to the range. Squire now you got me all paranoid. Think the motor might blow up?

Rat

 

One thing to watch, especially with minnies, is to be sure your load does not shift when shooting the shot barrel. That's what causes the wallnuts or burst barrels. (I hpe I;m not preaching to the choir.)

I hope not either ,,, however a point here .
as i stated above all rules are not 100% true. we just cant plan on every situation.
Just as a wrote some time back on a set of old barrels going off .I had the privlage