Col. Batguano
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zimmerstutzen said:
Right behind the; "hold my beer and watch this" method. :rotf:
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Proofing a barrel
- Thread starter JackP
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Right behind the; "hold my beer and watch this" method. :rotf:
Proofing houses is a European thing not the USA. Don't mean crap here. No modern gun is proofed here. Proofing makes the maker not liable when it blows, we use court action not .gov protection.
galamb
58 Cal.
There is "NO REQUIREMENT" for a US built gun to be proofed.
That doesn't mean that "NONE" are proofed.
In the US, "IF - IF" - the mfg wants to proof the barrel they use the standards set by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI).
So the "right" answer is: there is no "requirement" for a US made barrel to be proofed, BUT, some manufactures have had some of their product proofed in accordance with SAAMI standards, NOT the standards set by C.I.P = Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (Permanent International Commission for Firearms Testing - commonly abbreviated as C.I.P., which set the proofing standards used by the UK and most European countries (except Switzerland).
That doesn't mean that "NONE" are proofed.
In the US, "IF - IF" - the mfg wants to proof the barrel they use the standards set by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI).
So the "right" answer is: there is no "requirement" for a US made barrel to be proofed, BUT, some manufactures have had some of their product proofed in accordance with SAAMI standards, NOT the standards set by C.I.P = Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (Permanent International Commission for Firearms Testing - commonly abbreviated as C.I.P., which set the proofing standards used by the UK and most European countries (except Switzerland).
I'm sorry Mr. Huddleston, but you are too much mistaken in your proofing nations claims.
The following countries in Europe have CIP proof houses:
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Italy
Russia
Slovakia
Spain
The United Kingdom
The members of the European Union that do not have proof houses that are part of the international treaty, the C.I.P. (and if not a member it doesn't matter)
Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Greece, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia, and Sweden.
It should also be noted that Spain "batch proofs" muzzleloading barrels, meaning they take random samples from a group, and if the samples pass, the entire group or "batch" are proof marked.
There is only one nation in South America with a CIP proof house:
Chile
There is also outside of Europe and South America:
The United Arab Emerates
And once upon a time there was:
Yugoslavia
There are countries that do testing of their modern arms, and mark the barrels, but they are not members of the CIP, the Commission internationale permanente pour l'épreuve des armes à feu portatives, and as such, they are no more valid than a private test done here in the United States when using the term "proof".
LD
Loyalist Dave.
Thanks for the info. You may be correct but does anybody have a muzzle loader from Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Greece, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia, or Sweden? 90% come from Italy.
The main point is there are enough countries proofing to establish the fact that there is validity in proofing barrels. If anybody here has ever had an African trade gun they will know why proofing is important. I had one at one time and the breach plug almost fell out on the ground. Thank God that it was so lousy it would hardly ever fire.
Thanks for the info. You may be correct but does anybody have a muzzle loader from Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Greece, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia, or Sweden? 90% come from Italy.
The main point is there are enough countries proofing to establish the fact that there is validity in proofing barrels. If anybody here has ever had an African trade gun they will know why proofing is important. I had one at one time and the breach plug almost fell out on the ground. Thank God that it was so lousy it would hardly ever fire.
zimmerstutzen
70 Cal.
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As I recall, there is a gunsmith in Poland making some really good quality wheel locks and a fair portion of the guns come here to the US.
Some one said that Winchester has "had guns proofed and marked" any authority for that statement?
The term "proof" conotes that an independent company has tested the gun to certain standards and marked it to certify it's passing the test. As such, there is no proofing in the US.
Most companies and many individuals test fire the guns, but that is hardly a "proof" in the usual sense.
Some one said that Winchester has "had guns proofed and marked" any authority for that statement?
The term "proof" conotes that an independent company has tested the gun to certain standards and marked it to certify it's passing the test. As such, there is no proofing in the US.
Most companies and many individuals test fire the guns, but that is hardly a "proof" in the usual sense.
Again, you have a misunderstanding of proof. First, Spain proofs a great many barrels so I'd say your figure a bit high, and yes there are muzzleloaders made in other countries in Europe though not necessarily imported into the United States. Further, IF a company was started in one of CIP countries that imported barrels from another source, those barrels would need to be proofed prior to export...by your statement, if such a company was started in one of European Union nations that had no proof house, they would not need to be proofed, but you say they would be.
As for the "validity" in proofing barrels, with black powder guns it is more of a marketing factor and a tradition today, as the proof houses are free to use whatever standards they wish for black powder arms. There is no set formula as there is with modern, cartridge guns. Italy, for example, has one of the lowest pressure black powder tests.
As for the African trade gun... the majority were made with barrels that were proofed. Belgium is famous for producing the barrels for such guns. What your example shows that proof indicates a passing grade when the barrel left the factory. Lack of care for the barrel can render a proofed barrel dangerous... it is not a permanent measurement.
Mr. Zimmerstutzen,
That's all true, but the company must also be in a nation that signed the CIP treaty. You can set up a company that does a greater amount of testing and measurement of a barrel than required by the CIP, and you can do it here in the United States, but you can't tell folks the barrels that you tested and passed are "proofed".
I know folks it sounds like splitting hairs, and splitting them fine, but too many folks out there hear or read the word "proofed", and fail to understand they still need to be cautious. Others think it the Holy Grail of firearms testing.
I have been shooting black powder guns and rifles for 38 years, done live fire, competitions, and reenactments. Not to mention many hundreds of hours on a formal range and at informal target shoots, as well as hunting. In all that time... nobody ever inspected the bore of any of my guns for interior corrosion that would make it unsafe to fire... except me. Folks talk about the India made muskets, but if it's Italian, folks assume... "Well it's been proofed so it's safe to fire."
It is? :idunno:
LD
Well I started about 20 years before you did.
Anybody can proof a barrel. There are published proof loads for almost all calibers and gauges.
If your out to prove I'm capable of error everybody already knows that. The fact is that most muzzle loading guns produced today have proofed barrels. The fact that there are exceptions proves what? I prefer to proof mine. All else are free to shoot whatever they want even if the barrel is electrical conduit.
When I started It was almost impossible to find a muzzle loading barrel. A lot of them were home made. That is probably why I got this way. I'll stick to it. So will Pedersoli and Uberti and the rest. Tell me Dave. Why did Greener and Winchester, Purdey and Holland and Holland other companies proof barrels? There is a reason. Why worry if it isn't necessary?
"
08/26/14 08:26 PM - Post#1421037
In response to jerry huddleston
Quote:
90% come from Italy.
The main point is there are enough countries proofing to establish the fact that there is validity in proofing barrels. If anybody here has ever had an African trade gun they will know why proofing is important. I had one at one time and the breach plug almost fell out on the ground.
Again, you have a misunderstanding of proof. First, Spain proofs a great many barrels so I'd say your figure a bit high, and yes there are muzzleloaders made in other countries in Europe though not necessarily imported into the United States. Further, IF a company was started in one of CIP countries that imported barrels from another source, those barrels would need to be proofed prior to export...by your statement, if such a company was started in one of European Union nations that had no proof house, they would not need to be proofed, but you say they would be.
As for the "validity" in proofing barrels, with black powder guns it is more of a marketing factor and a tradition today, as the proof houses are free to use whatever standards they wish for black powder arms. There is no set formula as there is with modern, cartridge guns. Italy, for example, has one of the lowest pressure black powder tests.
As for the African trade gun... the majority were made with barrels that were proofed. Belgium is famous for producing the barrels for such guns. What your example shows that proof indicates a passing grade when the barrel left the factory. Lack of care for the barrel can render a proofed barrel dangerous... it is not a permanent measurement.
Mr. Zimmerstutzen,
Quote:
The term "proof" conotes that an independent company has tested the gun to certain standards and marked it to certify it's passing the test.
That's all true, but the company must also be in a nation that signed the CIP treaty. You can set up a company that does a greater amount of testing and measurement of a barrel than required by the CIP, and you can do it here in the United States, but you can't tell folks the barrels that you tested and passed are proofed" Dave
Who Says? Why Not? It passed the proof test.
Anybody can proof a barrel. There are published proof loads for almost all calibers and gauges.
If your out to prove I'm capable of error everybody already knows that. The fact is that most muzzle loading guns produced today have proofed barrels. The fact that there are exceptions proves what? I prefer to proof mine. All else are free to shoot whatever they want even if the barrel is electrical conduit.
When I started It was almost impossible to find a muzzle loading barrel. A lot of them were home made. That is probably why I got this way. I'll stick to it. So will Pedersoli and Uberti and the rest. Tell me Dave. Why did Greener and Winchester, Purdey and Holland and Holland other companies proof barrels? There is a reason. Why worry if it isn't necessary?
"
08/26/14 08:26 PM - Post#1421037
In response to jerry huddleston
Quote:
90% come from Italy.
The main point is there are enough countries proofing to establish the fact that there is validity in proofing barrels. If anybody here has ever had an African trade gun they will know why proofing is important. I had one at one time and the breach plug almost fell out on the ground.
Again, you have a misunderstanding of proof. First, Spain proofs a great many barrels so I'd say your figure a bit high, and yes there are muzzleloaders made in other countries in Europe though not necessarily imported into the United States. Further, IF a company was started in one of CIP countries that imported barrels from another source, those barrels would need to be proofed prior to export...by your statement, if such a company was started in one of European Union nations that had no proof house, they would not need to be proofed, but you say they would be.
As for the "validity" in proofing barrels, with black powder guns it is more of a marketing factor and a tradition today, as the proof houses are free to use whatever standards they wish for black powder arms. There is no set formula as there is with modern, cartridge guns. Italy, for example, has one of the lowest pressure black powder tests.
As for the African trade gun... the majority were made with barrels that were proofed. Belgium is famous for producing the barrels for such guns. What your example shows that proof indicates a passing grade when the barrel left the factory. Lack of care for the barrel can render a proofed barrel dangerous... it is not a permanent measurement.
Mr. Zimmerstutzen,
Quote:
The term "proof" conotes that an independent company has tested the gun to certain standards and marked it to certify it's passing the test.
That's all true, but the company must also be in a nation that signed the CIP treaty. You can set up a company that does a greater amount of testing and measurement of a barrel than required by the CIP, and you can do it here in the United States, but you can't tell folks the barrels that you tested and passed are proofed" Dave
Who Says? Why Not? It passed the proof test.
True proofing means by .GOV not manufacture shooting one blue pill in the gun and marking it "Proofed" Seems to be common knowledge in modern double gun circles.
Aww jerry, I used to work at a tube mill.....I can feel the barrel with my hand, and tell if there is any swell....every time I reload my burton or rice barrel......I just slide my hand along it and see if there's any changes.......all right so for!!!!
:rotf:
Marc n tomtom
:rotf:
Marc n tomtom
FWIW, a 'barrel' coming from, at least, the UK must be breeched before it can be called a "barrel" and require proofing. I bought a new, in the white, ca. 1800 damascus forged, made in Belgium barrel from a London gunsmith 13 years ago. He shipped it to me as a 'steel tube', no proofing or gun regulation nonsense to deal with.
zimmerstutzen
70 Cal.
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You may have test fired it but you did not PROOF it. You can call it anything you want, except that a manufacturer test firing something is hardly a proof. It is for the sake of making sure the action operates as it should as much as anything. Every US made gun for which I brought a products liability claim was test fired by the maker. Some blew up before the first box of ammo had been run through. One of them on the very first shot of factory ammo. (recalled by the wholesaler the day after the incident)
No red neck old tire test is a "proof" to any independent standard regardless of what you WANT to call it. It isn't as much certification as the little photocopied slip in a pack of FTL's saying "inspected by number 8"
No red neck old tire test is a "proof" to any independent standard regardless of what you WANT to call it. It isn't as much certification as the little photocopied slip in a pack of FTL's saying "inspected by number 8"
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When I build a gun, I PROOF test the barrel to MY standards, for MY peace of mind. Lawyer double talk not withstanding; my guns are PROOFED.
They have withstood more than the maximum normal load they will ever encounter if loaded correctly, with 0 deformation. Since there are no standards for proof testing in the US; my own standards are as good as anyone else's for my own benefit.
They have withstood more than the maximum normal load they will ever encounter if loaded correctly, with 0 deformation. Since there are no standards for proof testing in the US; my own standards are as good as anyone else's for my own benefit.
