Proper powder loads

[lbothell]

So let’s begin the debate hahah with the charges we are putting into our muzzleloaders how much of that powder is being wasted by not being burned? I know this has to do with barrel length but it always makes me laugh when a buddy of mine in muzzleloader season loads his TC Hawkens up with 120 grains of 3f... hahahah I would have to say that a lot of that ends up on the snow in front. I was always taught start with matching the grain with caliber size and Iv always done so. Chuck Dixon told me to run my powder lean just like a car he said to much oil in a car isn’t good but a little lean it will run just right. So is it really necessary to run loads as high as 100 grains in our .62 smoothbore? I know people get really good groups with higher charges at times but is that bc the more pressure around the ball helps stabilize it? Would a better seal do the same thing? Now this is just me but when my gun isn’t shooting well I focused more on a better seal then I do my powder. Now I’m not a match shooter I’m a hunter so My needs might be different but just wondering what your thoughts are. Maybe it isn’t the fact we need more powder but need a better seal? Not trying to start a fist fight hahah just thinking out loud.

 

[64Springer]

Popcorn for breakfast on a Sunday morning.

YUM!

 

[Grenadier1758]

Good questions @ibothell.

At many levels, it doesn't matter if we are shooting at targets or hunting, we still should be concerned about getting the best accuracy for our needs.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I have always shot reasonable charges. I'm not fond of recoil and in a hunting situation I prefer to get close to game and not have to shoot more than 50-75 yards.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Folks generally use too much powder....

 

[tenngun]

When I got my Centermark the recommended charge was 80 grains 2f with 100 grains as a max. The gun can handle bigger charges.
However I read on this forum about folks shooting lower charges and working well. So I gave it a try and sure enough a 70 or even 65 shot better than eighty.
Now Mike Belivue got great groups with bare ball and 110 in a similar gun.
Still I get good groups for me with lower charges and it turns Bambi french at my hunting ranges, less than fifty yards.
I THINK the powder sold west tended not to be the best compared to our better powders today.
I had a good stockpile of GOEX so weathered the storm ok.
Swiss is hotter and I have some elephant that’s not so hot. I don’t THINK there is a one rule you can hold to

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Folks generally use too much powder....

Yes and it's nothing new. It's been a concern for at least 200 years.

"Uncas, boy, you waste the kernels [grains of powder] by overcharging : and a kicking rifle never carries a true bullet." Hawkeye to Uncas, in Last of The Mohicans, by James Fenimore Cooper, 1826

Now in Cooper's time, the shooters that hunted, that he spoke with would've been worried about recovery of the lead, and in the novel Hawkeye remarks on recovering spent Indian ball, that the Mingoes wasted by shooting at Hawkeye and his companions.

I am required by law to use 60 grains of whatever size powder, when hunting deer in Maryland. I found that 70 grains was very accurate, and was slightly over the legal limit, so stuck with that. I use 3Fg in my .54. Max effective range for me is 100 yards. I get pass through with broadside hits and a .530 roundball.

..., it always makes me laugh when a buddy of mine in muzzleloader season loads his TC Hawkens up with 120 grains of 3f... hahahah I would have to say that a lot of that ends up on the snow in front.

I admit that I find that more of a misunderstanding of what is needed to take a deer. Especially when the fellow is shooting a 320 grain Maxi-Hunter conical. Here's one such guy after using more than five drams of powder....

I've heard a lot of folks talk about this "unburned powder" but I wonder have they ever tested the "powder" found on the ground to see that it wasn't burned, simply because it looks like it's intact grains? Have they ever taken say a 36" artillery carbine, a 42" 2nd Model Bess, and a 46" 1st model Bess, live fired these with the same load, and seen if there is a difference between the amount of particles that are thrown forward? I've extracted bits from inside a barrel, both smooth and rifled, that looked like powder, while cleaning after firing.

Further, I noticed that GOEX gives the following information about the .54, and doesn't mention the length of the barrel. Still..., Notice that from 100 grains up to 120 grains, there is not nearly the increase in velocity as from 90 grains to 100 grains, BUT..., there IS an increase, and it's when using FF, so would be more likely to burn slow and leave remnants than say 3Fg, and this MV increase must be from more powder burning than in the previous load, as nothing else accounts for the velocity increase.

Which again makes me wonder about the grains found on the ground in front of the rifle when a large charge is used. Would they not have burned as they are somehow contaminated? Did they burn but retain their shape?


LD

 

[pacanis]

Get the debate started? Didn't we just discuss this here?
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/powder-charge-how-much-powder-do-you-use.157938/


Round 2: Commence!

 

[Loja man]

Get the debate started? Didn't we just discuss this here?
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/powder-charge-how-much-powder-do-you-use.157938/


Round 2: Commence!

That was in “the General Muzzleloader” section. This was posted in the “smoothbore” category so it’s different.;-)
Yet I will say I’m interested to hear what people say because I’m working on a Chambers PA Fowler. The more info I can glean related to everyones preferred charges the better!!

 

[centershot]

Popcorn for breakfast on a Sunday morning.

YUM!

Butter and salt on mine please!

 

[FishDFly]

It is winter and folks have nothing better than troll and stir up fecal material.

 

[pacanis]

That was in “the General Muzzleloader” section. This was posted in the “smoothbore” category so it’s different.;-)
Yet I will say I’m interested to hear what people say because I’m working on a Chambers PA Fowler. The more info I can glean related to everyones preferred charges the better!!

Ah... good point.
I forgot there are people who only hang out in one forum. And that may be the case here.
Larger diameter, thinner barrel... I guess I can see the difference.

 

[martin9]

I've seen folks mention Beliveaus' 110 grain load many times on here. One thing I noticed.... at least in the English fowler video.... is he's shooting a 12 gauge...110 grains is pretty resonable for a 500 grain ball.

 

[oldwood]

More $hit.........I've been blessed to have owned two .62 cal. deer rifles. Started out with a .62 Jaeger rifle, with 28" t/f barrel. Easy to carry , and manipulate loading operations. I missed a deer with it , one day in a rain storm . The shot was close ,30 yds , but face on. A .62 doesn't care how you get to the heart /lung area. Have no idea how I missed that one.
Since I was used to 10+ yrs. of competition shooting with a .50 cal. 44" barrel long rifle , decided on a long rifle next , of course in .62. To qualify as a long rifle , the barrel length had to be at least 38 " . The stock was a 1" barrel channel , 2nd hand precarve Lancaster from a friend. I stopped my friend from throwing the stock into his wood stove , because at first glance , the stock looked like junk , do to it's being covered with a coating of thick muddy dust.
Took the filthy Lancaster precarve home to a laundry sink , soap , water , scrub brush ,and industrial hair drier. I was shocked , the hard maple , once cleaned up , would have been a $400 blank , with incredible 1/16 " stripe , end to end. I'm a minimalist , and never owned a curly stock like that one. I'll take it.
The rifle turned out to be a 1" , .62 Colerain , 38" barrel , perfect for a far sighted guy to move the sights apart for long distance accuracy, The .62 has a load sweet spot , right at 90Gr. FFg , with a longer barrel. Weight was just at 8 lb.. Found I was back to taking the longer shots in the deer woods ,and so I did.
Once age took it's tole on me, and my hunting buddy of 50 years , I built two .50 cal flint deer rifles , 7 lb. each , much easier for a near 80 yr. old guy to heft, Ladder stands ,and peep sights , are the order of the day. The story continues , as long as my Father says it will...........oldwood

 

[wtilenw]

Here's an old post:
"The formula is: 11.5 grains per cubic Inch of bore. You need a 36 inch barrel in .50 caliber to burn 80 grains of powder efficiently.( Actually, 81.29 grains!)

If you, or others forgot all that math you were taught in school( as I had) you calculate the formula this way:

Using the caliber( .50) determine the radius, because you need to know the area of a circle that size before determining the cubic length and content of a cylinder that diameter. The formula that you(I) forgot for determining the area of a circle is " Pi R Squared". Pi is 3.1416 for our puposes. R is the Radius.

Now the radius is half the diameter, so use .25 as your radius. Now square the radius, by multiplying it times itself.

.25 x .25= .625. Now multiply that number times 3.1416, which equals .1963125.

Now, multiply that number times 11.5 = 2.2580.

Now, multiply that times your barrel length to get the volume of the cylinder that is your bore length and diameter. 36 x 2.2580 = 81.288, or 81.29 grains.

Charles Davenport did NOT Invent the formula. It was worked out centuries before him to use with all Black Powder firearms. Ordinance was concerned not only with how much powder needed to be shipped on warships to feed cannons, but also with how much powder was needed to feed muskets and later, rifles.

The King would not be very happy if he spent his money to send his army to a distant shore to battle foreign armies, only to be told his war was lost because the ordinance department didn't send along enough powder! So, bean counters were around a long time ago. The formula is NOT JUST FOR Cannons, as one member here keeps insisting( with absolutely NO evidence to back up his statements, I might add).

The formula does NOT say you can't PUT more powder in your barrel, or FIRE more powder in your barrel, or even GET MORE velocity by putting more powder in your barrel. It deals with getting the MOst Velocity from the barrel with the Least Amount of Powder- that is " Efficiency".

When you pass the Efficient formula amount, you venture into the "Law of Diminishing Returns", that is, you get less and less increase in velocity for each measured increment in increase of powder.( Caveat: Particularly with shooting PRBs, the coefficient of friction between the PRB and the bore is so small, that you can get fluctuations in these velocities as you increase powder charges beyond the "efficient " formula- recommended load. Only meticulous attention to cleaning the barrel between each shot, and shooting long shot strings, to average, is going to give you a better idea about how any " Over charge load " will shoot out of your gun, on a particular day, with particular temperature and humidity present.)

Before overcharging any gun, you should take into consideration that the Sound Barrier does bad things to any projectile, but does even nastier things to a RB. Pushing any RB over 1135 fps. requires that ball to come back down through both the Sound Barrier, and the Transonic Zone, where all kinds of forces hammer the ball in the air.

And you should also consider that the faster something leaves the barrel to fly through the air, the faster it will slow down. You can see this clearly if you look at the tables in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual( any edition) that shows shot size, MVs, and then down range velocities at 20,40& 60 yards. The Chart makes it very easy to compare loss of velocity for the faster MVs vs. the Slower MVs. for any particular size shot you are interested in.

Since "bird shot " are simply smaller Round Balls, the principles of Aerodynamics that apply to shot also apply to shooting a single Round Ball from a rifle or smoothbore through air."

You do increase recoil, BTW, as half of the weight of the powder charge is going to move rearward, while the other moves forward. ( "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". Newton's Third Law of Motion.)

Charles Davenport is reported to have walked the firing lines at Friendship each year talking to the shooters, asking the caliber of their rifles, and their barrel lengths, and then consulted his book to give them their maximum efficient load. Phil Quaglino relates that Davenport told shooters to reduce that max. efficient powder charge by 10% and then work up to find the most accurate load for their gun. The 10% factor helped to make adjustments for barrel harmonics, that are unique to each gun. Quaglino held several national records as a rifle shooter, and may still hold several pistol records. He was a barrel maker, first in New Hampshire, and later in Florida, and has been building guns for more than 50 years. Even though he is officially "retired", Phil is still making guns, mostly for himself

 

[ord sgt]

Here's one such guy after using more than five drams of powder....

A dram of powder is 27 grains of powder. Five drams would be 135 grains. Stout load behind a heavy 320 grain maxi.

 

[lbothell]

Hahaha well when I typed this this morning I figured it would drum up some good answers and it sure has! As for the general muzzleloader topic I do apologize about not reading it there. I do move around on the forum but not as much as some. It’s always fun to talk about things and to be honest if ppl don’t want to talk about then don’t answer, BUT I will say when I do a search on the forum snd am looking for certain info it’s nice to read through a couple different discussions bc something new always comes up in each one! Besides it’s cold out and it’s winter time gotta get the blood warm somehow!

 

[Zutt-man]

A dram of powder is 27 grains of powder. Five drams would be 135 grains. Stout load behind a heavy 320 grain maxi.

I want nothing to do with that recoil

 

[morehops52]

Get the debate started? Didn't we just discuss this here?
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/powder-charge-how-much-powder-do-you-use.157938/


Round 2: Commence!

There is never a question here that just can't be discussed enough. I always laugh when I see a How Do I Blank A Barrel? (I won't even mention the exact Q here). While to the majority of us the A: is Water and Dove Soap it's still fun to read about guys who only use old oil from a 1956 John Deere mixed 1:1 with granny's naphtha soap. Hey, I don't care what anybody uses and that includes HEAVY charges of BP.

But to the Q at hand, I like big loads as long as my rifle likes them too. I shoot maxis which like heavier loads and it takes a bit of shooting to see what one consistently likes. As far as wasted powder all I can say is that as I add powder the more my body gets pushed back. Maybe all of the extra powder isn't being burned but I know a lot is by the recoil. Thanks to LDave posting that chart that does show a continued increase in velocity though not entirely linear.
A little experimentation last summer showed me that even the shortest of barrels can benefit from a larger charge. I shot a Philly derringer at 20, 30 and 40g of 3f to check penetration at point blank range. Each larger charge showed a marked increase in penetration that equaled the boom and recoil. At 40g of powder there was only about 2 in of barrel beyond the ball. I don't know if all the extra powder was burned in that short barrel but I do know that enough was to make a significant difference. The same goes with hunting. I don't care if powder is wasted as long as that charge is accurate and I can shoot it well. I just like big charges and always have. To me it's part of the fun of shooting BP. The bigger the boom and more smoke the better I like it.

 

[Brokennock]

In general, and blanket statements are rarely completely true,,, when speaking of smoothbore loads, I seems to notice that most of those running large powder charges are loading bare ball loads. Especially those using no wad at all seem to need that larger charge.
Personally with my two smoothbores I've found good accuracy with wads or patches at around 65/70 grains and 80/85 grains. But then, I'm only looking for groups sub-four inches at 50 yards. Not looking to cut Xs at that distance or further, and not much deer shooting here at much more than 50 yards. If the chance comes up, I'm willing to pass or try to work closer, even if it means possibly not getting a shot.
Might a 90 grain or larger deliver a less than four inch group beyond 50 yards? Maybe,,, but, I have no need for it, so I'll save my powder for more shooting and my shoulder for bowhunting.

Don't get me going on Captain Corpulant and how he somehow became an expert on this stuff