Proper Steps In Applying Aqua Fortis

[MSW]

thank you fellows.....as this will not be my gun, i don't need any goofups~!......i can blame only so much on the kat........

BTW, we keep a outside-on-the-porch tomkat, he keeps the chipmonks/mice etc down....and he has a little house with straw and a water dish, and his food dish....which is kept full all the time(the rodents still get termiated as i have seen)...anyhow....heard a ruckus this weekend, and looked out, the tom was whipping the neighbors beagle dog....and i mean a whipping plumb off the porch!....then in about a hour the neighbors OTHER beagle thought this food dish was easy pickins....well....he got whipped off also....and i mean screaching/howling running whith tail tucked...... :haha:
the three other beagles just stayed out in the yard for a moment or two....and ran off back home.....the 'porch tom' just went back up on the bench.....and back to sleep..... :youcrazy:
i no longer have the meanest dog on the block.....just don't touch the kats food dish.... :surrender:

marc n tomtom

warning warning warning ff :stir: ff

neighbor some years back had their cat chase a moose off of the front porch ... made the front page of the paper (OK- -we're not talking the New York Times, here) and we never did figure out what the moose was doing on the porch in the first place, but the cat found this activity highly offensive.

my parents had a cat who thought it was great sport to go into the yard next door and beat up their German shepherd (he was a pretty big cat, and it was a pretty wus dog) ...

as regards AF, I tested it once on a rifle which had inlays of an exotic (I think it was bloodwood, but it might have been bubinga - can't remember) and I found that there's something in the stuff which makes a stain happen in a really unpleasant way so, if you have a similar situation, do a test piece on a mock up so you don't get in trouble as I did...

:redface: :redface: :slap:

 

[jamesthomas]

Stophel, what would you use on Red Maple?, I just bought 2 Red maple stock from Mr. Martin on the ALR. thinking about a 24Ga. smooth rifle for one of them if its thick enough.

 

[Stophel]

Stophel, what would you use on Red Maple?, I just bought 2 Red maple stock from Mr. Martin on the ALR. thinking about a 24Ga. smooth rifle for one of them if its thick enough.

Aqua Fortis, of course! While I avoid using red maple, I would not avoid using A.F. on it!

Here is how I stain with aqua fortis:
once satisfied with the surface of the wood, slop on your A.F. solution HEAVILY. Make sure you get it everywhere, and then let it sit for at least an hour to dry and "pre-darken". If it is heated right away, it will turn screaming orange. When it "pre-darkens", sugar maple usually turns gray-ish, while red maple generally turns quite green.

One thing you can do while it is still wet is to "whisker" it (no sense in making it an extra step with just water). Now, I scrape stocks, so I get very little whiskering when it is wet. If you sand, you will get more. While wet, I will usually very lightly scrape off the whiskers with a glass microscope slide. Yes, I have used steel wool too, but not the really fine OOOO stuff, that's a mess.

Ok, when it's dry, heat it carefully with a heat gun. I'm sure a radiant source of heat would do better. I've done it over a burner plate before and it works fine, though awkward. The heat gun has a tendency to want to scorch the protruding corners, and yet not get heat down into the nooks and crannies (like the ramrod groove and under the cheekpiece), but be careful and persistent and it works. Now, the color may yet be a little bit uneven, and, since I never can see all the imperfections in the stock surface while it is still white, I will invariably find spots that I need to fix. No problem, just smooth the spots out and stain again. And again. I will generally stain several times to make sure all my bad spots are taken care of and to get even coverage of the stain. In fact, after a few applications, it will become difficult to even get the stock to "wet" with the stain, it will be saturated.

I have sometimes even soaked the stock with paint thinner (once the stain is dry) and heated the stock, boiling out the paint thinner, which seems to get the heat further into the wood and sometimes helps getting the color to change evenly. Yes, I know, it's probably not "safe"... :haha:

When satisfied with the stain and everything, it is time to neutralize. Most people use baking soda, and I have before, but I like to use a lye solution, which, apparently, is the historical method. I just use Red Devil lye, but you could easily use wood ashes, and I probably will when my lye runs out. Again, slopped on heavily. Oh, and do as I say, not as I do, and wear rubber gloves. Lye will eat off your fingerprints! The lye will further change the color to a more red-orange. Then just take it out and wash it off with a water hose good to remove the lye, wipe it off and let it sit to dry and then it's ready to finish! No further staining with aniline dyes or pigments is necessary. :wink:

No, it is not a quick slap-it-on-and-go stain, which is probably the main reason so many people are so averse to using it, but the results are FAR superior to anything else.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Is there any kind of a shelf life to AF? Or other commonly used chemicals, like LMF browning solution?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

From what I have read AF has a shelf life anywhere between a couple months to over a year depending on storage conditions. A tightly sealed bottle in a cool dark place is the best place to store it. I have heard of folks having issues with the blushed AF being somewhat greenish instead of the typical reddish brown finish. I'm not sure about browning though, I used an opened bottle of plum brown that was well over 5 years old and it worked just as well as a new bottle.

 

[Col. Batguano]

On my test strips of sugar maple, I used some AF that was a couple years old, and it made a decidedly greenish color on the test strips. From what I remember in doing it on a red maple stock a couple years ago, it blushed first green, then yellow, then orange, red, and finally a reddish brown.

Further heat on the test strip just went to a very dark brown, and then the edges charred. The brown was just too dark for my personal taste, in what I was trying to accomplish. No yellow, orange, or red came out before the brown. That's why the question.

Where do you get the right kind of lye anyway? I've never seen it in a grocery store, or a big box home improvement store. But then again, I haven't looked specifically for it either.

 

[necchi]

Lye is available in Hardware stores in the plumbing section, it's a drain cleaner.
Unfortunately it's a component used in making illegal street drugs like Meth/Crank and because of that many stores don't carry it anymore or it's not on a shelf and you have to ask for it.

 

[Stophel]

My aqua fortis I have been using (and I'm about out, need to make some more) is several years old. It works fine. Some say it is best if it is at least 6 months old.

Remaining green means not enough stain. It needs to have more stain applied (can happen if your solution is too weak too... so, apply more stain).

I do NOT like the commercial Aqua Fortis, as it has a little HCl added to it. It is entirely unnecessary, even though the manufacturer claims it is. And, it definitely does impart a more greenish color that can be hard, if not impossible, to get rid of no matter what. Because of that, I haven't touched the stuff in many years, and make my own. I do NOT recommend using commercially produced Aqua Fortis.

 

[Stophel]

Making your own Aqua fortis is not difficult at all. First, you must procure some nitric acid. Thanks to the internet, it can be found. I got mine from Ky. Antec www.kyantec.com in 1 liter brown glass bottles. I got a couple many years ago and still have one unopened bottle left, which I'm gonna have to open up soon, because I'm about out! It's not terribly expensive, or at least it wasn't then. Shipping will probably cost you more (just like with everything else these days).

Now that you have your reagent grade nitric acid, take a mason jar fill it with about one part or less pure water with about 3 parts acid, so that you get the jar about half full (the proportions are not all that critical.) Do this, outside, far away from anything you don't want to rust. Next comes the iron.

Now, like I always say DO NOT USE STEEL WOOL. Please. Don't just drop a big chunk of steel wool in. It reacts WAY too fast, the solution will get HOT, and the jar will belch forth great billowing plumes of toxic red death (NOT an exaggeration). Find some small finishing nails or little bits of iron/mild steel and drop in a few at a time. It might take a while for it to start, but eventually, the iron bits will start bubbling a little as it slowly "dissolves" into the acid. When it's about gone, add a few more. Repeat until it no longer wants to "dissolve" any more iron. This can take a few days. Then drop in a few more pieces just to be sure, and let it sit for several days to "deplete" the acid as much as possible.

Now, for whatever reason, sometimes the end result will look different than other times. Why, I don't really know for sure. I used to get lots of "sludge" in the bottom of the jar, with the liquid being funky orange. I was told it was probably because I overwhelmed it with steel wool or too many nails at once! Even though it's funky orange or pink, it still works. Last few batches I have made more slowly, and I got zero sediment. Sometimes the solution is almost totally colorless, sometimes it is clear yellow, either works fine.

There really is no need to dilute it any more (it already has some water in it), but you can dilute it some if you want to try to "stretch" it. You can stretch it too much, though, and it becomes too weak and makes it hard to stain with. Kind of trial and error here.

 

[Lock Nut]

Just wondering if one needs to use "clean" steel or iron vs using rusty steel scrap or iron. Also is there a difference using steel vs real cast iron in the mix?

 

[Stophel]

I've always used relatively clean stuff. I have been told that rusty junk will make a lot of funky sediment, but I'm sure it will still work. :wink:

Old nails or bits of mild steel is good. Something where you know what it is, and it's a plain steel. Something with nickel or chrome in it is supposed to adversely affect the solution (though I don't remember how).

 

[54ball]

It seems I remember this discussed a few years back and the mystery metals can cause all sorts of unwanted colors, namely green.

 

[Zonie]

I think the stain that sometimes ends up green is Chromium Trioxide.

I could be wrong though.

I haven't heard of well made aqua fortis turning the wood green.

On the other hand, I have charred the H out of a stock trying to get it to blush when using aqua fortis.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Stoner,
I am late to this party. I used to use dilute (5%) nitric acid (no iron in it, not aqua fortis) and paint it on like aqua fortis. When dry, heat with a heat gun and it turns a blushing pink. That gave me a red undertone with which to work and I would add (usually water-based) dyes on top to give me the brown and golden tones. That process gave me a lot of color control particularly considering the vagaries of individual pieces of wood. Now, nitric acid is hard to come by unless you are a legitimate business. I never liked commercial aqua fortis because it was very difficult to control the color. Now I paint on ferric nitrate crystals, which are easy to buy, dissolved in distilled water, not tap water, and then heat the stock with a heat gun. I have pretty good control over color by altering the concentration of the ferric nitrate. I usually start with a mixture of 1 part ferric nitrate to 3 parts water (by volume). In some wood, that will impart a browner color and less red. If that happens on my test wood, I up the ratio of ferric nitrate to water, which adds more iron and ultimately iron oxide in the wood after heating. Finally, washing the stock with lye or baking soda is fine but not the best if you have carving on the stock. A simple wipe with a rag dipped in ammonia will do the job neutralizing the acid and there is no need to wash the stock after that. Theoretically, the heat should drive off all the hydrogen ions from the ferric nitrate solution in the wood leaving iron oxide behind. Consequently, as long as you completely blanch the stock with heat until there is no further color change, you should not need to neutralize at all. However, in reality, I always use the ammonia, just in case.

dave

 

[54ball]

Zonie,

There needs to be some care in the choice of steel or iron for the solution. I think the problem I read about was that stainless or galvanized wire was accidentally used. This created all sorts of problems.

So when you use old nails or wire make sure they are indeed mild steel or iron. Sometimes a galvanized nail can eventually rust, so can galvanized sheet metal like roof tin and wash tubs. These chemicals can contaminate the mixture.

When making the solution make sure good donor steel or iron is used.

 

[shootrj2003]

I have used TOW Aqua Fortis on many woods, In general,very predictable,it will darken,and make the difference in grain,show better or POP, (chatoyance?),no matter what wood you use it on these two things will happen,no matter what in a greater or lesser degree,mostly depending on the hardness or density of whatever wood you use. Have used it on Walnut that was an 80s Marlin,( the company had to save money later on so later wood was still American or Black walnut,but, a lower lighter grade many times) and I used it on my first rifle -Stevens Springfield 120- to make the Beechstock look like walnut, instead of beech ,I’ve never neutralized it, then.and never had any rust despite careful inspection recently,however I may give future and present projects a wash,just to be safe.I did call TOW and was advised it was unnecessary also with thier product.
It’s not magic or smoke and mirrors just another way to make wood look better, no matter what you use it for.I mostly use it for guns,big projects get Minwax or lumber store stains,but you can use them on guns with perfect results also.have fun and leave it beautiful.