Pulling a load (moderate length to this post)

[roundball]

I have a question about "pulling a load".

I've put a lot of time and effort into reading and studying and gaining experience in many forms of shooting sports since the '60's, significant amounts and variety of reloading, requires a lot of caution and attention to safety, etc. I say all that only to establish that I'm not a newcomer and certainly know there's an element of danger associated with shooting sports to be respected.

I've been into muzzloading now for about 15 years and occasionally see a reference to "soaking the breech end or the load in water for 30 minutes before pulling the load"...and the implication of that statement is oriented towards safety, but other than an extreme safeguard for liability's sake, I'd like to hear opinions on how "pulling a load" is any more dangerous than putting the load in the barrel in the first place?

Or this example: when I come home at the end of a hunt, I lay the rifle on a padded work bench, ensure the nipple or vent is well plugged, slide a ramrod with ball puller down the bore, pull the ball, blow the charge out with compressed air, and wipe / lube the bore.

The breech end is plugged so no ignition source can enter from that end, there is no ignition source inside the bore, the ball puller is brass and cannot ignite the powder, and the lead ball sliding out the barrel cannot ignite the powder.

Interested in your thoughts on the matter, thanks

 

[Chuck Deaton]

Safety first, 2 minutes for safety, develop a procedure that is absolutely safe no matter what else is going on.

All it takes is one explosion, one round ball in the wrong place to cause a physical, financial and emotional catastrophe.

Personally I am not aspiring to a Darwin award.

 

[roundball]

Philosophically, I couldn't agree more of course...but was hoping someone could shed more of an engineering light on how ignition could possibly occur under the circumstances described

 

[musketman]

I only had to pull two loads to date...

I used a T-handle brass cleaning rod and a ball puller, I pulgged the nipple with a leather strip and the hammer...

Once the ball puller was screwed into the projectile, I hooked the T-handle between the "Y" section of a stout sappling and pulled the muzzleloader with both hands from the rear.

The rod and ball fell to the ground as I was safely behind the muzzle.

 

[roundball]

And I too have done those things...but was hoping someone could shed more of an engineering light on how ignition could possibly occur under the circumstances described

 

[Haggis]

This should knock me down any remaining rungs of the respect ladder, but here goes. I hunt with a dry patch in my first load. If I don't fire my gun that day, I leave it loaded; sometimes until the next season.

If I have to reload during the day I use a spit patch and shoot the load out before going home. A spit patch over time will ring the barrel if left in place.

I've already diminished my status by admitting to using old cotton t-shirts for patching, but there is method to my madness. A ball patched with a cotton t-shirt will pull fairly easily. Remember that when that screw does eventually bite into the lead ball the ball will expand against the rifling, should rifling be present, and increase the difficulty in pulling said ball exponentially. If the patch is dramatically oversized in order to have a super tight fit, make that exponentially squared.

Do not soak the load in water; trust me, find another way.

Please read this:
"I encamped six or seven miles from the springs, and, whilst proceeding down the creek, deer and antelope continually crossed and re-crossed the trail, some in their affright running back into the very jaws of the fire. As soon as I had secured the animals, I endeavored to get my rifle into shooting order, but the water had so thoroughly penetrated and swelled the patching round the balls, that it was a long time before I succeeded in cleaning one barrel, the other defying all my attempts. This was a serious accident, as I could not but anticipate a visit from the Indians if they discovered the camp." WILD LIFE IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS
by George Frederick Ruxton

 

[roundball]

Right...no intention of soaking a loaded barrel in a bucket of water...and I just use prelubed patches so pulling balls is always easy.

I'm trying to learn if there's a specific reason why it's felt that pulling a ball has a greater danger associated with it than when charging a barrel in the first place...hoping to learn what the ignition source could possibly be under the circumstances I described above.

(BP is not mysterious and won't just go off by itself...it's not nitroglycerine and won't go off from being bumped or jarred, etc...it needs an ignition source).

 

[Stumpkiller]

Roundball,

I see what you're getting at. Why would pulling it cause an ignition?

Well, consider this: Why are you pulling the charge? Is it because you introduced ignition to the charge and it didn't fire . . . yet? There is a danger of an ember or smoldering charge suddenly getting an inflow of air when the ball begins to be extracted and PLAM! you've got a ramrod sticking through your head right next to the hole where the ball passed through. Not fun 'tall.

It's just a safe practice to do everything possible to prevent injury. Have you ever had a powder measure ignite in your face? No. But it's still a bad idea to load directly from a horn.

Best system I've ever seen is a Zerk fitting in the nipple threads and forcing the ball out with a grease gun. A real mess to clean up, though.

 

[roundball]

Nope...the conditions are:
Home at the end of a hunt, (need to unload the rifle) so I lay the rifle on my padded work bench, ensure the nipple or vent is well plugged, slide a ramrod with ball puller down the bore, pull the ball, blow the charge out with compressed air, and wipe / lube the bore.

What would be an ignition source in that "sealed breech" condition while using a "brass" puller with a "lead" ball?

 

[Haggis]

There are primitive peoples who use a wooden tube, a "ramrod", and a bit of tinder to start fires. I works kind of like a diesel engine, on compressed air. Maybe that would start a fire in the breech and set off the load?

Never heard of it happening with a ML but then...,"

 

[RJR]

On the rare occasion that I have needed to pull a ball at home, I have never used a ball puller. 'zonie as you have stated you have an air compresser, why not use your rubber tipped blow gun and blow the ball with air? At our club we use an air bottle to blow "dry loads" and I have had occasion where my load would not go off at the end of a hunt and had to take the rifle home with a charge and ball in it. I have easily used my compresser to blow the ball. Just a thought. Take care, Rick.

 

[Chuck Deaton]

I got it, but I'm no engineer.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Well, lets be empirichal. What causes black powder to explode? Heat, which can be provided by friction, spark, open flame, or transferred from something already hot. Soooo, in your example of a cold barrel in your house on a padded workbench we could have friction from:

A.) Twisting the ball puller into the lead ball (unlikely).

B.) The steel screw on the end of the puller penetrating the ball and patch with enough retained heat to ignite it (a little better but still unlikely - you said yours was brass? Even the part that digs into the ball?).

C.) The powder being ignited from an outside source just as the ball clears the barrel (do you smoke? Overhead lightbulb breaking when the other end of the ramrod smacks it - my kind of luck. Brother-in-law being a jerk and throwing a firecracker on the bench hoping to scare the manure out of you - see also drunk hunting buddy. Cat hopping up and knocking over the radio, whose antenna knocks a file off the peg-board, which falls and strikes the end of the barrel, causing a spark which flashes the powder and blinds you because you were withholding six drops of black powder solvent).

Why do you ask, anyhow?

 

[squirejohn]

Rounball - I think the chance of a ML going off when pulling the ball as you described is just about nil. I've done it myself a number of times when I've short-started, know of a number of hunters who do it every day and reload with a fresh charge every day. When short-started in a "dirty" barrel it helps to pour a little liquid down the barrel to soften the fouling.

Haggis- the dieseling you spoke of did happen to a friend of mine. He thought he had dry-balled and pulled the ball at the range. AT home he started to clean the gun and after a bit looked down the bore with a flashlight. The breech face looked clean and "shiny" and he continued to run a patch up and down the bore. All of a sudden the gun went off, the ramrod hit the ceiling and smoke filled the room. His cockatiel (sp?) damn near choked to death and his wife nearly went thru the roof.

Fortunately the was little powder in the bore since the ramrod only put a small dent in the ceiling. -

 

[Chuck Deaton]

"Dieseling", for the life of me I would have never thought of such a thing but I can see how it might happen. Fortunately most diesels have a high 22 - 1 compression ratio which is hard to acheive.

 

[Haggis]

There is a good article and a short clip on how teh "fire piston" works at http://wmuma.com/tracker/skills/fire/firepiston/firepiston2Ron.html

This may not answer the of how pulling ball could cause the load to fire but it's a thought.

 

[Chuck Deaton]

Well butter my butt and call me a biscuit. It makes sense though, a carefully constructed piston would certainly get hot when cycled.

 

[Zonie]

Gol durn it Deaddog! Har I were jus a keepin ma mouth shut (fer a change) 'n then ye go an say
" I have never used a ball puller. 'zonie as you have stated you have an air compresser, why not use your rubber tipped blow gun and blow the ball with air?".
Ta begin with Ah dont know how Ah got inter this post but anyways, as a matter o fact Ah don't have an air compressor (unless ye wants ta call that semi-usless little thin ye plug inter yer cigerett liter hole ta blow up yer tires on yer 4 x 4 an air compressor. As fer as Ah'm concerned the jury's still out on that one.)

Jus a word 'bout Diesel pressures/temperatures.
If you compress air very rapidly to 50 pounds per square inch it will heat the air to 400 degrees F.
If you do the same to 100 pounds per square inch it will heat the air to 800 degrees F.
This 100 pounds per square inch is only a compression ratio of 6.9:1 so ye see if you use a jag and patch on the ramrod, and then ye cram that ramrod RAPIDLY down a 42 inch barrel (or even a 22 inch barrel) to the bottom it can easily heat the air to over 800 degrees.
Now as we all know, black powder can ignite at temperatures a little over 400 degrees so I can understand why the powder went off and sent the ramrod (and wife) into the ceiling.

Now kin Ah go back ta sleep fer awhile?

 

[roundball]

Stump, I just think there are a number of old sayings that get passed on and on with this hobby and generally we each take what works for us and let the others go by.

But every now and then when I've gotten tired of hearing a particular one over and over that just doesn't seem to have any basis in fact or logic, I like to float them out to see what comes up in case I've overlooked something.

I've pulled loads for years as described above, and keep a dedicated ramrod/ball puller hanging on the wall with the other cleaning equipment.

To me, if pulling a ball was dangerous enough to require soaking the barrel in water for 30 minutes, seems like there would have to be a parallel for loading.

Loading is basically the same thing in reverse, but should be considered even more dangerous for obvious reasons...and with more potential hand, arm, and head exposure around the muzzle than when simply pulling a ball as I described.

 

[Stumpkiller]

True enough. I catch myself frequently pushing down the ramrod with the flat of my palm. A no-no. I can remember pulling only two roundballs in my life, and I didn't soak the powder for 30 minutes in water. I pulled the nipple and dripped oil in for one and T/C #13 for the other. I won't tell you how many powderless loads I popped out when I was new to M/L by removing the nipple and dripping in powder. And a stuck ramrod once. Nature gives us lots of chances to splash ourselves out of the gene pool.

Who really knows what can go wrong when the powder faries are mad at you. That's why they call them accidents.