pyro in flint smoothy

[big bore 75]

well today the impluse in me was to try these duplex thing
and see what would happen , I'm happy to report my bess and me made it home in one piece, had some rather interesting and surprising things happen, first i loaded it down with ifg goex and got a decent shot group off the bench with a nice 1" group (my bess wears both front and rear sites),then whent to pyrodex, loade it with 70 grains and pilowticking and cast .715 roound ball lubed with olive oil,dropped some 4fg in the panand squeezed it off, went off alright with a long delay but went boom,, then took 3fg 10 grains, and 70 grains of pyrodex, same bullet patch combo, primed the pan squeezed her off and had one fast ignition, and one sweat hole in one (X) reloaded no fouling to speak of, another hole in one , then another and another , well I have to say that bess has never shot so well, not sure how well it would stack up against damp environmental hunting in rain or heavy fog most of us are used to for hunting but it was fun to play with, still not sure i wnt to use it hunting but heyif its going to be a nice day who knows . thiis was just my exparament , and I had fun doing it. bb75 ::

 

[roundball]

FWIW, I've also experimented with layered loads in a .62cal smoothbore and got the same results...I used 20grns Goex 3F downbore, followed by either 60/70/80 grns Pyrodex RS, and they all worked as perfectly as if they had been 100% blackpowder

 

[Ohio Rusty]

BTW .... there is an original Bess on display in the museum at San Jacinto. That Bess also has front and rear sights. Someone wanted to take a sure bead on the Mexicans ....
Ohio Rusty

 

[benvenuto]

Someone wanted to take a sure bead on the Mexicans ....

ah...
probably the reverse actually
The brits sold large quantities of surplus besses, paget carbines and baker rifles to the mexicans between 1820-48

 

[Wes/Tex]

There is an original Bess on display in the museum at San Jacinto

Going to have to go back over there and see that one. It's been a long time since I've been into the museum. Only sighted musket there then was a M.1809/39 Potsdam musket which I had to tell them couldn't have been at the battle since the Prussian armories didn't start converting them to percussion for another 3 years...didn't that go over well!

If it's an actual sighted Bess, it'd have to be the Light Infantry version of the New Land Pattern issued to the regiments designated as "Light" and the companies of the 60th not issued with Baker Rifles. Very possible some were included with the surplus muskets sold to Mexico after the Napoleonic Wars were over.

 

[musketman]

then whent to pyrodex, loade it with 70 grains and pilowticking and cast .715 roound ball lubed with olive oil,dropped some 4fg in the panand squeezed it off, went off alright with a long delay but went boom,, then took 3fg 10 grains, and 70 grains of pyrodex, same bullet patch combo, primed the pan squeezed her off and had one fast ignition, and one sweat hole in one (X)

I must point out that the first load of pyrodex was only 70 grains...

Your duplex load was 10 grains of FFFg and 70 grains of pyrodex... (That's an 80 grain charge)

The duplex load shot different because it had 10 extra grains of powder in it...

If you wanted to duplex the 70 grain charge, you need to cut the pyrodex back to 60 grains after the 10 grains of FFFg is added...

 

[big bore 75]

really why sould I have dreduced the charge? I loaded 70 grains striaght off with straight pyro dex and patched round ball, the delay was from the pyrodex ignighting,it took a second or a bit less. in the next round I loaded 10 grains of 3fg goex and 70 grains of pyrodex just to see ignition speed and it whent off with out any delay what so ever, that is were I started playing and got my fun results,in the future I'm going to start adding more pyrodex
in 5 grian incriments to see were the accuracy dies off, everyone does things similar but differently so your results are going to be different. bb75

 

[musketman]

really why sould I have dreduced the charge?

I'm not saying you should reduce the charge, but the duplex charge is 10 grains more (the FFFg), you have to count that as part of the whole charge...

It doesn't matter in the mid-range of the load limits, but if you worked up to the max charge, then it would come into play...

If you ran a max charge of Pyrodex and 10 grains of FFFg to set it off, you would be 10 grains over the max limit...

That's all I'm getting at...

 

[Mike Brooks]

It doesn't matter in the mid-range of the load limits, but if you worked up to the max charge, then it would come into play...

This may be getting a little off topic, but I'm not sure you can over load a flintlock gun with black powder loads, or have a "maximum charge". In my fiddling with large bore shotgun/turkey loads, they just keep belching out the charge with no ill effect, no matter how large of a load you put in. Of course this statement is assuming you have a safe and serviceable gun with a properly seated load.
I've patterned long barreled 10 bores with up to 2 7/8 ounces of shot and 150 grains of 3fff. It kicks and roars some, but I don't feel it wouldn't handle larger loads with out problem. Probably just more kick and roar. I'd probably give out before the barrel did. :cry: :youcrazy:

 

[Stumpkiller]

. . . but I'm not sure you can over load a flintlock gun with black powder loads, or have a "maximum charge".

I strongly disagree.

Think of it this way. Say you pour in 1,000 grains of powder and a 230 grain ball in a .54

That powder column compresses and fills every nook and air space as the explosion commenses. So, the first 20 grains of powder is pushing 1,210 grains of projectile.
The first 50 grains of powder is pushing 1,180 grains of projectile.
The first 230 grains of powder is pushing 1,000 grains of projectile!

Lets stop there a second. That's equivalent to 200 grains of powder (almost a double normally recommended maximum load) and over FOUR round balls in a .54 rifle. I wouldn't pull the trigger on that one.

The firing sequence contnues . . .

The first 300 grains of powder is pushing 930 grains. Equivalent to four round balls. That's WAY more than a proof load for a rifle barrel.

At some point the barrel will end before the powder is consumed - hopefully everything exiting the muzzle - but I sure don't want to be the one holding the gun in this experiment. The inertia of that weight of powder is no different from the inertia of an equal weight of lead. That gets a pressure spike way outside the norm to get it moving as the explosion occurs, and is constantly being fed more powder as it builds and burns down the powder column.

I bet your nipple or vent would be working overtime trying to pass that pressure.

 

[Rebel]

Once, LONG LONG ago, i took a CVA .45 cal colonial pistol (caplock) which had a 10' barrel. We filled it until there was just enough room to seat the ball about 1" below the muzzle and fired it. Talk about recoil. The only thing it did to the pistol was bend the barrel pin that held the barrel in. Not saying you couldn't blow one up, just that i don't think you could do it using BP and a properly seated projectile. Now if you don't get the projectile fully seated, or are dumb enough to try smokeles powder, then it is another story. :imo:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Well, I'm glad you guys are doing the empherical testing and experimenting on this.

Modern barrel steels are extremely strong. Turner Kirkland put a 1/8" vent in a foot long piece of his Belgian rifle barrel and threaded both ends, filled it to within an inch of the end, threaded in the cap, stuck a length of cannon fuse in the vent, and ran like h#ll. The plugs held and the gasses all exited via the vent.

Let me see if I can get Zonie to lend me his rifle and we'll test it.

 

[Rebel]

Well just make sure you get one of them with all them silver doo dads on it. :: Wouldn't want to ruin a good gun, :kid: Zonie.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I bet your nipple or vent would be working overtime trying to pass that pressure.

That's the key , with a flintlock all the gasses exit the vent. I personally doubt a caplock would be as able to with stand the same loads. I believe the nipple hole is smaller and can't deal with the volume of gasses created.
All of this speculation is assuming a properly seated ball/shot load.
I've only messed around with big loads in large bore flintlock fowlers, 12 and 10 ga. in perfect working order , They all were Getz barrels too. :master:

 

Does anyone have access to the Sam Fadilia article where he shoots 100 gn loads out of copper pipe?

:hmm:

 

[Keith]

--------------------
50% of the population is below average

----------------------------------------

ROTFLMAO - :crackup: Why is it I meet so many of them?

 

[rmark]

Fadala was testing short started loads if I recall correctly. With ball seated on powder the copper pipe would hold up well, when short started it blew up with slivers of pipe flying in all directions.

 

[Jdzara]

Stupid question, what does "Short Started" mean?
Thanks
Jerry

 

[Rebel]

It means the ball is not seated all the way down on to the powder and there is an air space between powder and ball.. It can also be when someone uses a short starter to start a ball, and then forgets to use the ramrod to seat it the rest of the way. Either case can cause a burst barrel. And also not a stupid question if it will prevent you or someone else from getting hurt.

 

[musketman]

It means the ball is not seated all the way down on to the powder and there is an air space between powder and ball.. It can also be when someone uses a short starter to start a ball, and then forgets to use the ramrod to seat it the rest of the way. Either case can cause a burst barrel. And also not a stupid question if it will prevent you or someone else from getting hurt.

This applies to ALL muzzleloaders, not just smoothbores...