Pyrodex and corrosion

[Zonie]

Some time back there was a discussion about Pyrodex and Perchlorates causing corrosion in the barrels that had used it.

At the time, I indicated that I would try to contact Hodgdon and get their take on it.

The following is a copy of the message I just got around to sending to them followed by their responce.
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From: Jim King
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:27 PM
To: Help Account
Subject: Pyrodex Powder Corrosion

As a moderator on a well known Muzzleloading Forum (Muzzleloadingforum.com), I am continually reading posts which maintain that Pyrodex contains Pechlorates and that these Pechlorates will cause irreparable harm to the barrel if Pyrodex is used in a gun.

Being an Engineer rather than a Scientist I do not know what the byproducts of firing Pyrodex is so I am asking:

Does Pyrodex contain any form of Perchlorate?

If Perchlorates are present in Pyrodex, are the byproducts of firing it in a muzzleloading firearm corrosive?

If the Pechlorates produce chemicals that are corrosive to steel specifically, what are they?

Some are alleging that the corrosion produced by firing Pyrodex is on the micro etching/corrosion that cannot be seen with the naked eye.

If the byproducts are corrosive, what special cleaning process beyond the normal soap/water methods commonly used in muzzleloaders are required?

As a side-note, I have shot Pyrodex for many years and I have not seen any unusual corrosion in my guns however I have not examined the bores with high magnification so the micro-corrosion alleged by some would not be easily detectable.

As I mentioned, I am a Moderator and our web site has over 16,500 members, many of whom shoot Pyrodex and they are concerned.
Your rapid reply to my questions will be greatly appreciated by both them and myself.

If you do answer this, please be aware that I intend to quote your answers on the website (giving full credit to your company for the information).

Thank You for your time

James King (alias Zonie)
-----------------------
Ok, here’s the deal. I get this question 50 times a year and they all originate from web sites. The problem with the internet is that there are so many “experts” who really have no knowledge but want to portray themselves as the keepers of all knowledge as long as they can hide in the anonymity of the internet.

Yes, Pyrodex contains pecrhlorates.

No, they do not etch the barrel at some minute level so small it can only be viewed under a full moon while wearing a wizard outfit.

NASA and the DOD both have tested and used Pyrodex over the past 35 years. Their testing contradicts the “experts” on the internet. They found Pyrodex to be no more corrosive than black powder.

Cleaning of Pyrodex residue is the same as black powder. No petro solvents, only water based or polar solvents. Soap is great. Windex with vinegar is great, Ballistol is the best thing for cleaning muzzleloaders I have ever seen, with all powders.

I don’t know how to make it any more plain, no special problems with Pyrodex. Shoot the gun, Clean the gun completely and you are just fine.

Those who want to continue to spew about their “expert” knowledge about the corrosiveness of Pyrodex and how it magically micro-pits barrels are going to continue to spew the same old tired stuff. How could the continue to be the anonymous “expert” hiding on the internet if they gave up. That is just the nature of the internet. I (we) are bound by truth, the “experts” are bound by their imaginations.

I hope this helps. I would say that it may be best to just give the best advice ever, “When you want to know about a product, call the maker. 800-622-4366”


Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager

The Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants

Hodgdon Smokeless Powders

Winchester Legendary Propellants

IMR Propellants

Pyrodex

Triple Seven

Goex Black Powder

------------------

Perhaps this answer will calm the fears some of our members may have about using Pyrodex in their firearms.

I fully expect to see the folks who made the charges say Hodgdons answer is just a CYA however based on my use of Pyrodex for many years and the condition of my gun barrels I tend to side with Mr. Daly

 

[54cal]

Thanks for clearing up a lot of the hype about Pyrodex. Some of us who don't shoot enough to justify getting 5#'s or more of BP because we can't get it locally, the subs are a lot easier to obtain.

 

[necchi]

Thank's for sharing. I like the part where he say's clean the gun completely,,,
Stands to reason don't it,,there is no magic fix for NOT cleaning your gun :grin:

 

[mykeal]

Zonie,

I do not often shoot Pyrodex, but I have used it sparingly for many years. I have to report that my initial use in the 1970's was quite unsatisfactory, resulting in the ruination of an 1851 Navy revolver. However, I did NOT fully clean the gun, and I left it uncleaned for several days before even doing the cursory job that I did do.

That put me off Pyrodex for quite a while, but I did return to it a few years later when the local manufacturer of real black powder blew up his plant for the third time and decided to get out of the business. This second experience was much more successful, continuing through today. I have had no corrosion issues with any of my guns, including two 30 year old rifles that used Pyrodex exclusively for a couple of years when I first got them. I did learn my lesson regarding cleaning, however, so perhaps it's me and not the newer Pyrodex.

As I said I don't usually use Pyrodex; I am a Holy Black fanatic. But, I have no prejudice against it nor do I have any concern about corrosion when I do use it.

And thank you for this thread. It's most interesting.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Altho' I have never believed all the "sky is falling" stuff about Pyrodex, I am glad to see you publish Mr. Daly's letter To settle the issue. Its a fine service to do for the members here now, and for future members. This thing seems to have a life of its own on the Net, as Daly explains, and its nice to help lay out the truth for interested readers, once and for all.

Since I basically a flintlock shooter, I will be sticking to using real black powder instead of pyrodex, or the other non-black powders that the company sells.

Thanks,Jim, for taking the time to write the company and to post both your letter, and the company response. :hatsoff:

 

[ebiggs1]

Another myth busted! That is why this site is the best. I have used Pyrodex ever since I started shooting cap locks many years ago and I never had any problems with it. I still do since BP has it's "challenges" in it's purchase.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Thanks for taking the time to write and get us the correct info.

 

[sepiatone]

I would say that it may be best to just give the best advice ever, “When you want to know about a product, call the maker. 800-622-4366”


I did this with Toyota about a year ago. :shocked2: I should've listened to the internet experts.

 

[BillinOregon]

Thanks Zonie. I had experiences years ago with Pyrodex that led me to believe it was either more corrosive or corrosive in a different way than black powder, but it was probably just my cleaning programme that was wanting. I do think black is easier to clean up, and easier to ignite.

 

[BrownBear]

Those who want to continue to spew about their “expert” knowledge about the corrosiveness of Pyrodex and how it magically micro-pits barrels are going to continue to spew the same old tired stuff. How could the continue to be the anonymous “expert” hiding on the internet if they gave up. That is just the nature of the internet. I (we) are bound by truth, the “experts” are bound by their imaginations.

I nominate Mr. Mike Daly for president of the internet. Straight shooter, for sure.

I've burned a lot of Pyrodex over the years, and have to concur with both you and him.

My only beef with it is ignition problems that start developing somewhere in a long string of shots. You have to clean the nipple and flame channel after half a dozen shots in my guns, whether or not you're swabbing the bore. I don't have that experience with black powder- no ignition problems even after dozens of shots. I've never seen that researched or explained, but it's the only significant difference to me.

 

[brubincam]

-----is it true about pyrodex ruining guns it is used in----- :surrender: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :surrender:

 

[oldwolf]

Thanks for posting. It pretty much says what I have always suspected...clean your gun after shooting Pyrodex and all we be OK.

 

[rabjr]

Just saw this thread after posting about pyrodex on another thread.

I know I read an article once, most likely sometime in the early 70's about a chemical in Pyrodex that continued to eat at the metal after cleaning and the original formula was changed omitting that chemical, or was to be. Now this was probably a "Shooters Digest" or one of my American Rifleman mag's it was in. Of course the author could have been full of **** but I do remember reading such an article.

I've got no dog in this fight and could care less, if it works for people use it, I use real black powder and not trying to talk anyone out of using it, just stating that some where at one time there was an article on the dangers of using it and why. It would not surprise me to find it was a 1960's article as I inherited many gun books from my father and used to read everything cover to cover. :idunno:

 

[Dphar]

Would you expect him to tell you what the difference is between BP fouling and perchorate fouling? I would like to ask him if he knows at what humidity level the two different substances become non-corrosive. BP fouling will fail to absorb moisture from the air at 30% or less RH. You may or may not take my word for it, but I have TRIED to rust clean, dry steel at low humidity with BOTH and BP IS not corrosive at low RH and will not not rust steel in 2 weeks or more.
So I suggest that anyone with any inquiries ignore me and the powder maker and DO SOME TESTING ON CLEAN BARE STEEL themselves.

The difference is I don't own any stock in any powder company or work for one or sell powder.

Potassium Perchorate and Potassium Chlorate (the detonating compound that has ruined so many barrels over the years) are VERY close to the same in corrosive power. Look at an original FL gun from 1770-80 that has never been "converted" then look to one that has or a rifle that was percussion and used a drum and nipple especially. Note how the barrel steel is eaten away where the cap flash has contacted the steel compared to the flint guns exterior condition. One never sees this level of missing metal in a flint gun.

But people will believe what they want to believe.
Most people don't even know what BP fouling contains.
Dan

 

[Zonie]

I really don't want to expand this post beyond its original intent, that being, the company maintains that Pyrodex fouling is no more corrosive than black powder fouling and BOTH of these must be cleaned out of the barrel when the shooter has finished shooting for the day.

I have always done this and I haven't seen any problem with the use of either powder.

 

[Norinco]

The metal eaten away would also be due to the frictionizers in the percussion caps.

I'm not sure if percussion caps ever used powdered glass as frictionizer, but centerfire military ammo sometimes did (commbloc stuff for example).

 

[Poor Private]

I use trip7, 90% of the time in my revolvers and I clean as soon as possible aafter use. I notice no appreciable pitting or rusting in the barrels of any(that I purchased new). Some of my pistols are for civil war reenacting use exclusivly and do not get a ball down the barrel. After a weekend of use with powder (trip7) and oatmeal- they do not get cleaned until I return home and clean them mondays. The barrels are as shiny and smooth as when I purchased them. Like the manu. rep says clean them thourghly. Don't just give them a quick clean and then a toss back in the safe.
Thanks again Zonie for the time and trouble to help your fellow members.

 

[Norinco]

Not to threadjack, but is 777 really as great as people say? Does it clean up with only water? How well does it store? I just might have to pick some up for the summer, but it's going to be stored outside.

 

[mykeal]

I think Swampy is correct - I had a very bad experience with Pyrodex and failure to properly clean an 1851 Navy revolver in the mid 70's (that's 1970's). Ruined the gun, and I stopped using it altogether as a result. I also started cleaning thoroughly, and very soon after shooting. However, I have used it more recently and it sure seems to be less of a problem now.

But, the bottom line is, clean your guns. I don't get Dan's point at all. I don't care if the RH is 2% or 92%, and I'm sure as heck not going to base my cleaning on what it is. Shoot and clean. Period. Regardless of what you're using as propellant, regardless of the RH, regardless of the phase of the moon or who won in Florida. But that's just me. Everyone else is free to check the RH all they want to, and I hope it works for them because I hate to see rusted guns no matter what the cause.

 

[ebiggs1]

What is interesting is knowledgeable people are getting different results. Now there has to be something a foot but just what?