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Pyrodex vs Black Powder

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Cage Dodger

32 Cal.
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What are the pros and cons of each type of powder?

I'm starting to find that true black powder is a bit scarce around here as you need a special license to sell it. Pyrodex isn't much easier to come by. I saw one bottle of it where I bought my Old Army but didn't have enough $$$ to get it then. I went back three days later and it was gone. Dealer said he didn't know when he could reorder as he'd just placed his order for smokeless powder and forgot to reorder Pyrodex. He likes to place all his orders together because of "hazard charges" in shipping. Nobody else around here that I've found sells either one. How do you get your powder and what kind? Old Army manual specifies FFFG. Thanks in advance for any info.

Cage
 
why not order the black powder inc. sells it by 5-10-25 pound losts, if you have a bass pro shops near by they carry the powder, and its 20.00 plus dollars a pound, if orderd yes you have to pay a haz mat fee, butstill cheaper to order when you concider the price of fuel. kjg
 
I have the same problem finding black powder in my area. Pyrodex is easily available at the local Wally World on a seasonal basis and the gun shops that cater to cowboy action shooters always have the substitutes in stock. I use real black only in the few guns where I have trouble igniting Pyrodex and at that I only use a few grains to conserve the little black I have on hand. I detest the fouling that goex produses in my rifles. My ram rod gets stuck even after just one shot. I can shoot 3 or 4 shots with pyro before things get tight.

Don
 
I get tighter groups with Pyro 'P' than BP. but I also shoot good deal of the 'black stuff'. I usually load hot because I'm practicing with hunting loads.
 
I just received a case of black powder a week ago; two of my buddies and I will split it up. Cost, including HazMat and shipping, was just under $12 a pound for Goex. Wano/Schuetzen would be a bit cheaper. I always suggest getting together with some friends and ordering a case, as you can order mixed granulations. The last time I ordered black powder, I got 2fg, 3fg Goex and Schuetzen, Goex Cartridge and some Swiss. Oh, you asked about pros and cons.....Well since the majority of my shooting is with both flintlock pistols and rifles, I use the real thing. Also use it in my C&B revolvers. I've still got 2 pounds of Pyrodex I bought 20+ years ago...Emery
 
I tried Pyrodex, 777, and American Pioneer powder.
All work OK. Pyrodex is corrosive. 777 has more power
then the rest. American Pioneer powder has a little less
power then the rest.
American Pioneer powder is the only that works OK
in some of my flintlocks.

Black powder is king.




Tinker2
 
I did a comparison between FFg Goex and Pyrodex RS using a consistent rifle/volume/bullet/cap shooting over a chronograph and found that the Goex gave less deviation in velocity between shots. Goex also gave better accuracy shooting 5 shot groups and cleaning between each shot with both powders.
 
Cage Dodger, and Don, and others: You can order Black Powder shipped to your door, for much less than the cost of buying Pyrodex, or any of the substitute powders. Graf & Son, and Powder Inc, and a couple of other major distributors across the country will ship you powder at better prices, if you order at least 5 lbs. If you order a case of 25 lbs, you get the lowest prices. Some men order the powder in bulk, and do even a little better on the total cost, but it means you have to supply your own cans, or containers to store the powder. Cans with good lids can be bought cheap at Hobby stores. I just keep my old powder cans, which I can reuse.

When you figure in the cost of gasoline to drive to some place that carries any powder at all, it makes sense to save that money too. Some of the subs are being sold at more than $25.00 per pound, and that is more twice what you will pay for black powder delivered to your door. If you happen to belong to a gun club, you should be able to find other BP shooters in your same situation, so that putting together an order for powder should be no problem, with the shipment being divided and the costs split between the buyers.

IF YOU BELONG TO A BP. Gun club, why not go to your local Sporting goods store that used to carry Black powder, and offer to store a supply of powder at your range, or at some other local property that meets the Homeland Security Regulation requirements, which the owner or manager of the store will have access to. In return for helping him out, he will accept deliveries, and place orders, and the club members will buy at cost. You build the powder magazine or bunker on the club property. All you need is an old refrigerator, with a good hasp and lock on the door, properly marked, and either buried in a pit in the ground with proper drainage, or placed inside a locked building to prevent vandalism and theft. Regs. require the powder be stored 300 feet from any occupied residence, and that is why most stores can't meet the requirements.

The gunstore dealer doesn't make any profit on powder used by members, but then he can advertise that he sells powder to " non-members", and make a profit there. He has no storage or inventory overhead, unless he wants to order additional powder for his store use, and the only thing that he has to work out is how to get the powder from the magazine to deliver to customers at his store. He can have some member of the club deliver prepaid orders to his store on, say, Saturday morning, and customers can be told that is the day they can pick their powder up. Or, in the alternative, they can meet someone at the club, with their receipt and pick up the powder at a pre-arrange time and date. These logistics are not that hard to work out, if people just work together.

The club gets a friendly gun dealer, and free advertisement for the club as a place to join, and a place to shoot, something all shooters are interested in these days.

The new rules have imposed a small burden on most of us, and for the guys living off the coast where only fed. regulated carriers can transport goods, an absolute barrier to buying black powder. Hopefully, the Congressman and Senators from Alaska will prevail upon the Homeland Security AGency to change those rules so that Black powder can be delivered by commmon carriers to islands like Kodiak. The Boys in Washington constantly forget that NOT every state is criss-crossed with roadways and super highways, to transport goods and services. Many have no concept of the distances that must be traveled by citizens who live in the West to get anything.

If they did, they would find a way to reduce or eliminate the Federal Gas Tax to lower the price of gas to consumers, and find ways to get Nuclear Power plants built again, and windmill turbines on line to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels of all kinds. That $300.00 rebate from the government barely covers what it will cost this year to buy gasoline for a car for the year, over what it cost last year.
 
Pyrodex is harder to light, harder to clean, and more corrosive than FFF Goex.
 
Thanks for all the info. (almost too much)

Sorry I posted in the wrong section. I'll try and do better next time.

What I'm after is what is going to be easiest on me, being new to the whole BP thing. I'm looking for something that will go bang when it's supposed to, is not highly corrosive and is easy to clean. Is that possible? Or is it all compromise? The guy I talked to said Pyrodex is not as dirty as BP. Is this right? Is a Ruger Old Army going to have ignition problems with a BP substitute? I'm in no way a traditionalist so I'll use whatever works best.

Thanks again.

Cage
 
the guy you talked to is right, Pyro is easier to clean than BP - that and tighter groups is the only advantage over BP. that's in my revolvers.
if you can get 3F BP try it out you will like it but the fouling is bad - pyro isn't quite as bad.
as near I can figure Pyro likes a real tight compression of the load. it doesn't do as well as BP in my rifles and I figure it's due to the loading lever compression on my pistols.
good luck, Blizzard of 93.
 
So far I have bought a deluxe powder flask with valve, a powder measure and a field capper, all brass and made by a company called Traditions. I bought a box of 100 Speer .457 balls and a small tin (100?) of CCI #11 caps. No magic bang dust yet. Do I need to use felt wads or is it just better to use them? What else do I need? I have heard some people use Crisco to seal the chambers. What else works good without making a big mess?

On the powder measure, if I want 35 grains:

-
50
-
40
 
40 grains( the top mark) is going to make a hell of a bang in that old army. It wont be all that accurate and will ring your ears.Try using about 20 grains and fill the rest of the chamber with corn meal. Seat a ball firmly on it and let fly. I have used felt wads and greased chamber mouths.I usually use a stiff mix of beeswax and lard. Criscoe is too soft and will blast out of the chambers adjacent to the one going off.Felt wads are easier and some guys swear by em.
 
So the lines are the 5s? (15, 25, 35, 45 etc?) The reason I'm asking is with the adjuster bottomed out (zero) it is below the 10, there is just no line there. So, I'm thinking the first line, above the 10, must be 10. Otherwise, if you try to set at 5 (below the 10), you'll get zero because at that position, the piston is flush with the top of the cylinder.

I don't know for sure but I think the instruction manual said 35 grains BP. (maybe they like to do repair work :hmm: ) I will start at 20 and go from there.

If I use felt wads, do I still need to seal with a type of grease on the felt and/or after the ball?

Thanks.

Cage
 
I know of no serious competitor that will use Pyrodex because it's dirty, harder to clean, more corrosive, less accurate, and harder to light. It is inferior to 3F Goex in every way.
 
35 or 40 grains of pyro or BP wont break your ROA, it just wont group worth a hoot. Most revolvers wont shoot well with a near max load. You just have to fiddle with loads until you find your guns sweet spot. If you use felt wads you dont need to grease the chamber mouth.I prefer to though.My ROA doesnt like felt wads. I fill my entire chamber to the rim with rifle grade pyrodex and compress a .457 ball on top of it and grease the chamber. I find that gives me a powerful round that is reasonably accurate. The larger grain structure of RS pyrodex has enough air space in it to compress a nearly ideal amount. It seats the ball right at the chamber mouth, which eliminates the slippage and accuracy problems that deep seating a ball causes.Your most accurate load is probably going to be with light loads of P pryodex or 3f black powder, with some filler to bring the ball to the proper seating depth. My pistol will put em all in the same hole with 20 grains of P pyro with corn meal filler, but it is a wimp load.
 
When shooting round balls, your handgun will burn no more powder than will a rifle with the same diameter bore. Use the Davenport formula of 11.5 grains per cubic inch, and then measure the barrel length, and add the length of the cylinder to determine the full length of the bore to burn the powder.

You will find that in the ROA, which is actually a .457 caliber revolver, you will find that 10 inches of barrel and cylinder will allow you to burn a maximum charge of 22 grains. Substract space for the ROUND BALL to be seated in the cylinder, and that brings the amount down to 18 grains. That may seem like a " Whimp " load to you, or others, but do some penetration tests with it before you sneer. I think you will be surprised. For combat, the handgun replaced the short sword, and knife. The handgun and revolver was not expected to knock a man down, or off his horse. It was not expected to put a ball through both sides of his torso. Rather it was intended to hit, and expand, and rattle around on his insides cutting through blood vessels, and vital organs to kill through shock, and hemorrhaging. If the target was not killed outright, it was expected he would bleed to death, or die later of infections doe to the grease, and dirt and cloth of his own dirty clothing being driven into his body cavity by the ball or bullet. We did not have antibiotics to treat gunshot wounds until 1938, and Penicillin was finally perfected, and put in a production format.

Men actually feared more being shot with a short barreled gun, like a derringer, than with a large caliber " horse pistol". With the former, your death was almost assured to be very slow and painful and your final days, even if you won the gunfight, would be filled with agony. In the 19th century, Only strong liquor, opiates, or cocaine, and Laudinum, a mix of opium and alcohol, could give any relief to your suffering as you died from Perontonitis.

If you insist on stuffing that revolver with 40 grains of FFFg, it will handle it safely. However, don't expect much in the way of accuracy with that load. Its makes a lot of noise, and smoke, and fire, and it definitely recoils in your hand, but it is not an accurate load for even the Ruger. There are some things that can be done to the Ruger to improve the accuracy with heavy loads, but that is another matter.
 
You said you'll use whatever works best. What works best for me is real black powder. It might or might not work best for you. Try them both if you can. Pyrodex is usually easier to get, but black powder can be ordered a lot cheaper. A little over a year ago, I ordered 25 lbs from Powder Inc. I think it came out to right at $10 a lb.

I remember when Pyrodex first hit the market. Being young and impressionable, I figured anything new must be better. I switched to Pyrodex exclusively for a few years. No matter how I tried, I couldn't get as good of groups. The fouling was harder, and it was just as corrosive as black powder anyway. When I finally switched back, my groups improved and cleaning became easier.

Pyrodex doesn't ignite as easily in some percussion guns, and flintlocks hate it. It doesn't seem to have any ignition problems in any revolvers that I've used it in though. It should work fine in your gun, but until you compare them both, you won't really know which is going to work best for you.
 
try this in you ROA. use a 7.62X39 caseing (AK and SK case) as a measure. about 32grs 3F BP (PYRO use same volume). then a felt wad with a smear of boot grease atop then your ball or slug. shoots good in mine. the key evidently is consistent compression of the load and this one allows you to run the loading lever just barely to the stop.
I do get slightly tighter groups with about 25 grs (.357 case of 3F) but I have to stack felts to keep the slug near the chamber mouth.
 
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