Pyrodex vs Black Powder

[pmwest]

35 or 40 grains of pyro or BP wont break your ROA, it just wont group worth a hoot. Most revolvers wont shoot well with a near max load. You just have to fiddle with loads until you find your guns sweet spot. If you use felt wads you dont need to grease the chamber mouth.I prefer to though.My ROA doesnt like felt wads. I fill my entire chamber to the rim with rifle grade pyrodex and compress a .457 ball on top of it and grease the chamber. I find that gives me a powerful round that is reasonably accurate. The larger grain structure of RS pyrodex has enough air space in it to compress a nearly ideal amount. It seats the ball right at the chamber mouth, which eliminates the slippage and accuracy problems that deep seating a ball causes.Your most accurate load is probably going to be with light loads of P pryodex or 3f black powder, with some filler to bring the ball to the proper seating depth. My pistol will put em all in the same hole with 20 grains of P pyro with corn meal filler, but it is a wimp load.

I tried the chamber full load of Pyrodex RS under a roundball topped with grease and found it to be good balance of power and accuracy. Thanks to slowpokebr549’s post in the Pistol forum. :hatsoff: After shooting this several times, I really like this as a plinking/fun load. Easy to load, lots of smoke, and enough power to blow a soda can up in the air. If I were to look at target loads to maximize accuracy, I would look at 20-30 gr. FFFg Goex with filler.

 

[slowpokebr549]

Good deal! I like that load. I have even killed a medium sized, whitetail doe with it. Glad to see someone else use it. I usually get a verbal drubbing when I mention that load around here.That is the only good use I have ever found for pyrodex.

 

[TopNotch]

Shoot Blackpowder.Prodex loses its accuracy and has more inconsistant groups the longer it sits on the shelf.

 

[Darkgael]

Pyro is easier to clean than BP

I keep reading that. I shoot both Pyrodex and BP about equally and have not noticed that Pyrodex is any easier to clean up. Warm water in the bore. Patches 'til they come out clean. No difference as far as I can see.
Pete

 

[tg]

I used Pyro in caplocks years ago and found no advantage to using it other than you can buy it at any outdoor sports store, I did not find it cleaned any easier/quicker, it has no advantage in corrosiveness, pyro is probably worse, pyro looses punch with age and is gone if it gets wet, I cannot really find any thing about it to recommend its use unless it would be that it is all that you can find and are shooting a caplock.BP can be delivered to your doorstep in the lower 48.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Pyro is easier to clean than BP

I keep reading that. I shoot both Pyrodex and BP about equally and have not noticed that Pyrodex is any easier to clean up.

I think it's one of those marketing phrases that people hear and pertetuate. :hmm:

 

[Dphar]

When shooting round balls, your handgun will burn no more powder than will a rifle with the same diameter bore. Use the Davenport formula of 11.5 grains per cubic inch, and then measure the barrel length, and add the length of the cylinder to determine the full length of the bore to burn the powder.

You will find that in the ROA, which is actually a .457 caliber revolver, you will find that 10 inches of barrel and cylinder will allow you to burn a maximum charge of 22 grains. Substract space for the ROUND BALL to be seated in the cylinder, and that brings the amount down to 18 grains. That may seem like a " Whimp " load to you, or others, but do some penetration tests with it before you sneer. I think you will be surprised. For combat, the handgun replaced the short sword, and knife. The handgun and revolver was not expected to knock a man down, or off his horse. It was not expected to put a ball through both sides of his torso. Rather it was intended to hit, and expand, and rattle around on his insides cutting through blood vessels, and vital organs to kill through shock, and hemorrhaging. If the target was not killed outright, it was expected he would bleed to death, or die later of infections doe to the grease, and dirt and cloth of his own dirty clothing being driven into his body cavity by the ball or bullet. We did not have antibiotics to treat gunshot wounds until 1938, and Penicillin was finally perfected, and put in a production format.

Men actually feared more being shot with a short barreled gun, like a derringer, than with a large caliber " horse pistol". With the former, your death was almost assured to be very slow and painful and your final days, even if you won the gunfight, would be filled with agony. In the 19th century, Only strong liquor, opiates, or cocaine, and Laudinum, a mix of opium and alcohol, could give any relief to your suffering as you died from Perontonitis.

If you insist on stuffing that revolver with 40 grains of FFFg, it will handle it safely. However, don't expect much in the way of accuracy with that load. Its makes a lot of noise, and smoke, and fire, and it definitely recoils in your hand, but it is not an accurate load for even the Ruger. There are some things that can be done to the Ruger to improve the accuracy with heavy loads, but that is another matter.

I think a chronograph will prove the 44 revolver will use more than 22 grains of powder effectively.
I had a 44 (1860 Army copy) years ago that shot best with a full but only slightly compressed charge of FFFG and a RB. This was about 35 gr IIRC. It was very accurate and would shoot into about 6" at 80 yards would have to dig out my notebook to get a velocity.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dan: You misunderstand what I am telling you. I am talking about efficient burning of powder, using Round Balls. If you load a conical, you will burn more powder, for sure. You can put more powder in the guns, and fire it, but in addition to the powder burned in the barrel, you get a better, and better light show out the muzzle as you increase the charges. Just like overloading a rifle, you will get extra velocity, but your SDV widens, and accuracy suffers as you increase recoil, and slam those lead balls into the rifling.

Now, if you put a 11 degree taper to the forcing cone of the barrel( the back end) you will find a noticable reduction in group size, and fewer flyers. Most shooters won't do that. If you use a faster ROT barrel than what usually comes with the guns from the factory, you will get better accuracy. And, of course, you have to take care of the muzzle, square it to the bore, use good sights, adjust creep and over travel and trigger pull weight on the trigger, tune the main spring and action parts to rid the piece of burrs, and parts that rub against each other when they shouldn't, and to lighten the trigger pull. You can shape the mainspring so it accelerates the speed of the drop of the hammer, while keeping the trigger pull light, so you don't disturb your sight picture. And, you can use custom grips to make the revolver fit your hand, and improve control and follow through by doing so. If you have a good gunsmith around, he can make sure that EACH chamber aligns with the bore of the barrel when the cylinder is rotated to bring each chamber into battery, and then he can bore the chambers so that their throats are the same diameter as the forcing cone of the barrel. And, finally, he can reduce the barrel/cylinder gap to improve accuracy, and velocity, by setting the barrel back one turn( or more) and then cutting the rear of the barrel to dimension.

Do all those things and you can get a more accurate revolver, and see some benefit from loading more powder.

Sneak a peak at some of the revolvers being used by competitors in the National matches some time. Don't be surprised to find bushings inserted in each chamber of the cylinder that both limit the depth to which a ball can be loaded, and the amount of powder that can be put in the chamber behind each ball. :hmm: Use of the bushings allow powder to be poured in the chamber up to the top of the bushing, and the ball to be seated in each chamber without worrying about pushing it into the chamber too far, and do it quickly.

 

[RICKYD]

I just ordered 5 lbs. of goex ffg from powder inc. out of Arkansas,should be here in 3-4 days, $18.80 a can. Purty painless so far......

 

[TFoley]

Sneak a peak at some of the revolvers being used by competitors in the National matches some time. Don't be surprised to find bushings inserted in each chamber of the cylinder that both limit the depth to which a ball can be loaded, and the amount of powder that can be put in the chamber behind each ball.

Dear Mr Vallandigham - is modifying the actual structure of the pistol legal in your competitions? I'm pretty certain that it's illegal in international competitions.

And BTW - my ROA is at its most accurate with 28gr of FFg whether shooting ball OR conical bullets, and has been since 1984, too, :wink: and nothing has fallen off so far - even the nipples are still the originals.

tac

 

[paulvallandigham]

It depends on the shooting match. Customized grips puts you in an unlimited class, I am told. As to rebarreling, or doing any of the other things I listed, they are okay. My brother had much of this work done by a man who held many national handgun titles, and regularly wrote a pistol column in Muzzle blasts back in the 1970s, and '80's. His Remington 58 reproduction had the chamber's rebored, because the chambers were so far out of alignment with the barrel, and a .457 diameter barrel was put on the gun, throated, and the throat and the forcing cones of the chambers were reamed the same diameter. You can look down the mouth of the chambers and see a Ledge on one side where the original chamber was off-center to the bore. The gun originally used a .451 diameter RB. Now it shoots the .457 RB. The improvement in the accuracy of the revolver was dramatic.

 

[TFoley]

Thank you, Sir, for the explanation. There may well be room for improvement then, even at my advanced age and decrepitude!

tac

 

[rabjr]

Pyrodex vs Black Powder

Black Powder TKO'S Pyrodex in the first round every time.

 

[chuck-ia]

If I could only have one type of powder it would be goex 3f, I use it in everything from .32 to .62 cal. I do have some 2f allso that I use once in a while, the 3f just seems a tad bit quicker to me. If all I could get was pyrodex, I would probably just start shooting modern guns. It just doesn't seem right to use a substitute in a traditional type muzzleloader. I have had no trouble cleaning my guns after using goex. I honestly think that people who buy a sub. powder because it is quick and easy to clean after shooting, should maybe stick to modern guns? When I first started shooting muzzleloaders over 20 years ago I bought a can of pyrodex, ended up giving it away after using it once. You just can't improve the real thing. flinch

 

[Dphar]

Dan: You misunderstand what I am telling you. I am talking about efficient burning of powder, using Round Balls. If you load a conical, you will burn more powder, for sure. You can put more powder in the guns, and fire it, but in addition to the powder burned in the barrel, you get a better, and better light show out the muzzle as you increase the charges. Just like overloading a rifle, you will get extra velocity, but your SDV widens, and accuracy suffers as you increase recoil, and slam those lead balls into the rifling.

Now, if you put a 11 degree taper to the forcing cone of the barrel( the back end) you will find a noticable reduction in group size, and fewer flyers. Most shooters won't do that. If you use a faster ROT barrel than what usually comes with the guns from the factory, you will get better accuracy. And, of course, you have to take care of the muzzle, square it to the bore, use good sights, adjust creep and over travel and trigger pull weight on the trigger, tune the main spring and action parts to rid the piece of burrs, and parts that rub against each other when they shouldn't, and to lighten the trigger pull. You can shape the mainspring so it accelerates the speed of the drop of the hammer, while keeping the trigger pull light, so you don't disturb your sight picture. And, you can use custom grips to make the revolver fit your hand, and improve control and follow through by doing so. If you have a good gunsmith around, he can make sure that EACH chamber aligns with the bore of the barrel when the cylinder is rotated to bring each chamber into battery, and then he can bore the chambers so that their throats are the same diameter as the forcing cone of the barrel. And, finally, he can reduce the barrel/cylinder gap to improve accuracy, and velocity, by setting the barrel back one turn( or more) and then cutting the rear of the barrel to dimension.

Do all those things and you can get a more accurate revolver, and see some benefit from loading more powder.

Sneak a peak at some of the revolvers being used by competitors in the National matches some time. Don't be surprised to find bushings inserted in each chamber of the cylinder that both limit the depth to which a ball can be loaded, and the amount of powder that can be put in the chamber behind each ball. :hmm: Use of the bushings allow powder to be poured in the chamber up to the top of the bushing, and the ball to be seated in each chamber without worrying about pushing it into the chamber too far, and do it quickly.

And I am talking about an accurate load that will actually do something if you shoot something with it besides paper.
I carried the particular 1860 army everyday for a couple of years. It was VERY accurate and made about the ME of a 38 special as I recall. I shot it A LOT at least 12 rounds a week just to keep the loads fresh. Usually more. I did not have it for an ornament or a toy it was something I actually used.
As I stated a test at 80 yards showed it shot into less than 6". I don't see how reducing the charge was going to help. Except to maybe deprive me of power I might need.

I would also point out that I made my living for quite sometime working on SA Colts, Winchesters, Sharps etc.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Were you shooting conicals, or RB out at 80 yards with that revolver? The guys at Friendship are shooting at 25 and 50 yard targets. They don't need the power to score on a paper target. We are talking, it seems, about two different things, and two different degrees of accuracy. I don't consider that an argument, Dan.

If you are going to use a handgun for hunting, or for social purposes, then load it with conicals. You get more " Whomp " for the powder burned, NO?

As to all the other things I listed that are done to reproduction and production revolvers to make them shoot better( Yes, even the RUGER OA can be improved), do them or not, as you find necessary. If you can defy the laws of physics, go for it. I have talked about the Davenport Formula for determining maximum powder charges for bore sizes shooting RB until I am very tired of explaining it. BY ALL MEANS, if it makes you feel better, put as much FFFG, or even FFFFg powder(NOT!) in that revolver that you can, with whatever it is you feel you Gotta shoot. If the gun doesn't blow up, HEY, you get the last laugh on me! Happy, NOW?

You win. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

Were you shooting conicals, or RB out at 80 yards with that revolver? The guys at Friendship are shooting at 25 and 50 yard targets. They don't need the power to score on a paper target. We are talking, it seems, about two different things, and two different degrees of accuracy. I don't consider that an argument, Dan.

If you are going to use a handgun for hunting, or for social purposes, then load it with conicals. You get more " Whomp " for the powder burned, NO?

As to all the other things I listed that are done to reproduction and production revolvers to make them shoot better( Yes, even the RUGER OA can be improved), do them or not, as you find necessary. If you can defy the laws of physics, go for it. I have talked about the Davenport Formula for determining maximum powder charges for bore sizes shooting RB until I am very tired of explaining it. BY ALL MEANS, if it makes you feel better, put as much FFFG, or even FFFFg powder(NOT!) in that revolver that you can, with whatever it is you feel you Gotta shoot. If the gun doesn't blow up, HEY, you get the last laugh on me! Happy, NOW?

You win. :surrender: :thumbsup:

In my experience conicals will shoot open top C&Bs loose by deforming the wedge. I don't think I have shot more than 20-30 of them from a open top C&B. I used to shoot 45 colt SWCs from a Ruger but it was so big and ugly I traded it off pretty quick.
From Lymans book in which they obtained vel and pressure data from a Lyman 1860 Army modified for pressure readings they obtained 752 fps with 22 gr of FFFG G-O.
With 33 gr they obtained 979 fps, this is near what my 60 Army load was. They exceeded 1000 with 37 gr but my revolver did not like heavily compressed powder. This is not as much gain as would be hoped for with that much increase in charge weight but it is a significant increase none the less. Even more importantly its getting into the velocity range where expansion begins with a lead RB. At 750 it not going to expand unless it hits something very hard. The revolver shot as well as I could hold and I could shoot a pistol fairly well at that time. I even put a low dovetailed rear sight in the barrel.
With a RB the 60 army generates little recoil so I see no point in shooting lighter loads or having to play games with spacers to keep the ball close to the forcing cone.
I would point out that I never said lighter loads were inaccurate.

So far as the formula for how much powder the bore will burn. I consider it valid. It seems to work with my 16 bore, 30" barreled rifle.
However.
This has nothing what-so-ever to do with the ACCURATE load.
Most 54s I have owned shot very well with 100 gr of Goex FFFG. But I had a Sharon prec Hawken I put together back about 1976 that simply would not shoot with 100 gr. In fact the groups did not tighten till I got to 120. Then, like magic the group size went from useless 4" at 50 yards to very good (2" or so at 100 IIRC, was before I started attempting to keep a notebook). I know I was really surprised at the change from 110 gr to 120.
Then there are the bench rest RB shooters who use huge charges of powder for the bore size because it apparently shoots best or they feel they need all possible velocity.
The formula is a useful guide, especially for barrels under 40"+- But it will not give you the best accuracy load in all cases. 45-50% or ball weight is a typical max for velocity for gr of powder used efficiency and many 45 caliber and over rifles will shoot well if not best at this level +- a few grains. Efficiency will drop off as the charge is increased but this does not mean that a rifle might not shoot better with an "inefficient" load.
I would also point out that small gains for large increases in powder charges are not just a BP or ML phenomenon. Look at the 280 Remington compared to the 7mm Rem mag. Lots more powder, lots more recoil, 10% +- velocity gain in the real world. Just one example of many.
Even with heavy bullets such as a 45 caliber 500 grain fired from a Sharps it takes about double the powder to get 30% velocity gain over a 45-70.

Dan

 

[alaskasmoker]

Well as you All know Im pretty new with this stuff.

Anyway, Ive been using pyrodex almost exclusivley, its cheaper and way easier to get than black powder. Well actually I can goex easily now that I know where to look, But I already bought 4 or 5 pounds of pyro.


I have a couple pounds of black 2f and 3f that I have been using off and on.

Honestly I dont see much difference in either. All my guns shoot about the same with either.

And the corrosion differences I cant see either. Although 10 months out of the year in Alaska we have virtually no humidity.

I shot my ROA last week and didnt clean it until last night. Normally I do clean it imediatly. Anyway, nothing rusted on it.

So I dont believe you guys are wrong in your assesments on the substitute powders, but maybe in a low humidity enviroment, such as alaska, pyrodex fairs better than what your experiencing

For me Ill use Goex or Pyrodex, so far they seem about equal to me.

 

[Dphar]

Well as you All know Im pretty new with this stuff.

Anyway, Ive been using pyrodex almost exclusivley, its cheaper and way easier to get than black powder. Well actually I can goex easily now that I know where to look, But I already bought 4 or 5 pounds of pyro.


I have a couple pounds of black 2f and 3f that I have been using off and on.

Honestly I dont see much difference in either. All my guns shoot about the same with either.

And the corrosion differences I cant see either. Although 10 months out of the year in Alaska we have virtually no humidity.

I shot my ROA last week and didnt clean it until last night. Normally I do clean it imediatly. Anyway, nothing rusted on it.

So I dont believe you guys are wrong in your assesments on the substitute powders, but maybe in a low humidity enviroment, such as alaska, pyrodex fairs better than what your experiencing

For me Ill use Goex or Pyrodex, so far they seem about equal to me.

Opinion follows.
Pyrodex fouling does not have to "rust" to pit a firearm. I have been in this game for quite sometime and I have never seen a firearm used with Pyrodex to any extent that is not pitted. If you left a Pyrodex fouled gun for a week it will have pits someplace. BP is nearly benign in comparison and a week will cause trouble with BP fouling.
I have had many people tell me that they shot the stuff all time and never pitted the gun. Until I pointed out the pits.
Using this stuff to any great extent will usually result it the use of BP being made far more difficult since the pitting traps BP fouling and makes the gun harder to load.
If the fouling has any access to water in cleaning solvents or the air it can ruin a barrel is a frighteningly short period of time. Driving home from the range has caused problems.
Most people never notice this until it becomes "noticable".
I will warrant that under magnification you will find very small pits in your ROA if its carbon steel. This often looks like a light frost on the steel until examined under magnification then it appears as small craters as the perchlorate fouling has been basically eating the steel. Once this starts it progresses at an every increasing rate.
If the ROA is blued I an surprised its not stating to get white in places.

I live in Montana BTW. Not exactly a rain forest and has rain fall amounts similar to interior AK but lower humidity in most cases.
I have spent time in AK too.

Dan