Pyrodex

[bdarin]

Hi. The place I get my powder from only sells Pyrodex. Is this OK? Or should I seek out a seller of plain ol' powder. What is Super Se7en? Any thing I should know about this stuff? I know i'm mostly gonna get opinions on this subject, but it's more than I got now. Thanks,
Bob

 

[roundball]

Often it depends on what you'll be using it for...flintlocks require real BP for reliable ignition, where percussions can use BP substitutes with a very high percentage of success.
I started out with Pyrodex in percussions, then switched to Goex when I switched to flintlocks, and found it to be so fast, clean, and accurate, that I've now switched all my percussions to Goex also.

 

Hi there! Welcome to the world of opinions.
I use black and only black, except when I use T-7, which ain't often.
I like black because I do. I understand that it's hard to find in a LOT or areas and just because I buy it by the case doen't mean everyone wants to.
So... the point of this is I don't look down my nose at Pyrodex or T-7.
If I couldn't get black I'd use T-7. It's clean and very powerful. Pyodex is perfectly alright too, i prefer T-7 because it's cleaner and 20% more gee-whiz to it.
I'll stick with black while I can get it...it's THAT addictive! ::
But would switch to T-7 if I HAD to.
Keep the qustions comming. We love to help and spout opinions. :imo: :m2c: ::

 

[cayugad]

As they stated, if using a flintlock then you would go to black powder. Since this is posted in a percussion forum I will take it for granted your rifle is percussion and you will have no problems with Pyrodex. Pyrodex RS which is a FFG grade is for R ifles or S hotgun. Pyrodex Select is a better more consistant grade of RS powder. Many people shoot Pyrodex P which is P istol grade or FFFg grade. Pyrodex P is 15% stronger then Pyrodex RS so you load accordingly. Many find it burns cleaner.

Triple Se7en on the other hand is also a black powder substitute. If your going to shoot Triple Se7en please remember Triple Se7en is 15% stronger then Pyrodex or Black Powder so if you shoot 100 grains of Pyrodex shoot only 85 grains of Triple Se7en . Triple Se7en will also work in your side locks. Some people run into patch burning problems with T-7 but adding a wonderwad between the powder and projectile will solve that.

One thing to keep in mind is moisture control. Black powder is the most forgiving of dampness when it comes to the powders. You have to pay special attention in all cases to moisture but this is especially true with Triple Se7en and Pyrodex.

I used Pyrodex for years in my sidelocks hunting in the rain and snow. If you keep your rifle waterproofed you will have little problems....

good luck.

 

[GrayBear]

When I first took up ML shooting I hadn't found a local source of BP. Wally World stocked Pyrodex so I shot up a couple or three cans in a variety of loads in a CVA .59 caplock rifle, a .50 H&A pistol and a CVA 12 gauge. They all went bang many times very reliably.

I've found and use 2f BP in everything now but if I had to return to Pyrodex I'd have no worries about it.

Best get used to it. We're on the ragged edge of seeing BP regulated and restricted as an explosive. Due to county fire laws I'm already restricted to having no more than 5 pounds of BP at one time unless I have an approved powder magazine. :results:

GrayBear

 

[Zonie]

Black Powder is already classed as an Explosive. That's why a lot of gun stores don't carry it.
For a Dealer to sell Black Powder, he must have a Federal license for explosives.
His Insurance rates also go up because he has an Explosive in his building.
Pyrodex, T7 and the rest of the substitutes are classified as Combustables like smokeless powder so the Dealer doesn't have to screw around with extra licenses.

I've shot many pounds of Pyrodex P, Pyrodex RS, and one pound of Select.
I have not shot the other New powders so I can't give a personal opnion about them.
The Pyrodex does not foul the bore as badly as real Black Powder does. In fact, I can easily shoot all day without wiping or loading problems.

Some say it leaves harsher chemicals in the bore so giving your gun a through cleaning is even more important than if you were using real BP.
IMO the Pyrodex Select is a total rip off. It costs more and was not as consistant in accuracy as the RS which works very well in my precussion guns.

As for Pyrodex being 15% more powerful than Black Powder this is true IF you are talking about power Per Weight.

This is Not True if you are talking about Power per Volume.
In other words, if your measuring your load with a hand held powder measure or dipper, like most all Muzzleloaders do, do not reduce the load from the Black Powder load.
If you are measuring the loads real Weight on your weight scales, then reduce the load.

From what I've read on this Forum, T7 IS more powerful per weight OR volume so you should reduce the load about 15% from the powder load you've been using.

This higher power thing is also true if your fortunate enough to be able to shoot Swiss Black Powder.
It is just better stuff and it requires reduced loads of it to hit the same place on a target. It also burns cleaner than Regular Black Powder.

edit) Another thought: The ignition temperature of Pyrodex is several hundred degrees higher than Black Powder. That is the reason it works very poorly (if at all) as a propellent in a flintlock. Even with a good flash in the pan and a clear touchhole to the chamber it usually won't fire.

This higher ignition temperature is also why Some caplock rifles have delayed ignition when they use it but they work great with regular Black Powder.

Another thought: Use the LOOSE Pyrodex if you have to use it. The pre made Pellets will not work in a sidelock gun. They are made for use in In-Lines Only.

 

[bdarin]

Well, ok. Pyrodex it is. Wasn't sure if it was the kind of stuff "real BP shooters" wouldn't touch with a 10 ft. pole. I stand corrected. Guess I'll keep using it. Didn't know that about the weight/volume thing. I knew there was a difference, but as long as it's not volume I won't have to do any math in my head when I'm loading. Thanks, guys. If you're still dying to give opinions, I'll be back later with a question on sabots. :RO:

 

[tg]

"Wasn't sure if it was the kind of stuff "real BP shooters" wouldn't touch with a 10 ft. pole."........this one wouldn't with a 20 ft pole, I can't think of anyone I know who uses it.

 

The only real donwside of the 'fake' BP's is the erratic ballistics compared to black powder, as long as ignition is sufficient. This is especially prevelent in ctg. guns and at long range but less of a problem with muzzleloaders shooting round balls.
; As all 'fake' black Powders are actually smokeless powders, they are Class "B" explosives instead of Class "A" explosives such as real black powder. The shipping of the phony ones is much easier.

 

[tg]

I guess I just see it as another answer to an unasked question, a way to make this sport "easier" as far as loading and cleaning, much like many other things, I cannot understand why bother to take a step back in time to another technology/experience then try to tweek things toward the modern "make it easy" mind set....just me I guess

 

[musketman]

I cannot understand why bother to take a step back in time to another technology/experience then try to tweek things toward the modern "make it easy" mind set....

No, it's not just you, that's a good solid point...

If we are going to take the time and invest the money, then why bother with trying to modernize it...

Some have no choice, with the decline in black powder dealers in their area...

But, if pushed come to shove, I would rather use Pyrodex than not shoot at all, I guess, if I had to...

 

try to tweek things toward the modern "make it easy" mind set....just me I guess

I agree with musketman, as I often do on many topics, but it ain't just you.
If you don't mind me being blunt and please understand I mean no critisim of anyone, we must be as tolerant as possible about this period correct thing.
Keep in mind that a great many people can't get black powder at all.
I've mentioned many times that if I couldn't get black I'd use T-7.
Also many people get into this sport just to bag a deer in the extended seasons. I did as have many thousands of others.
Fortunately for me I took some giant steps backwards and am truely enjoying shooting as never before.
Season before last I had an opportunity to hunt the Smokey's of E. Tenna. I took my very first flinter, a Lyman GPR in .54.
I got a shot at a nice little 4 pt. at about 40 yards. The damn gun went click fssst, and off ran the only deer I saw.
Did that put me off on the "old ways"? Hell no. I laughed so hard I nearly split me breeches and learned it ain't about killin', it's about huntin'.
Click fssst is PART of the game when you step back. I truely ENJOY THE HUNT, not necessarily the KILL. Harvesting is ONLY a bonus to me.
I really, really, wanna get me a buck with the Jeager .58, but I know the in-line will be much more reliable than the Jeager flinter, but so what.
If it were just about the taking of venison I'd sit in my tree stand with a .308, which is of course quite illegal in Ohio.
Shooting and hunting isn't about taking game, it's about keeping tradition alive.
We all need to accept things as they are and HELP, not critisize others in the muzzle loading game. :imo: :m2c: :results:

 

[tg]

I understand that many are not into the PC thing which is fine, as for BP being hard to get, anyone can order it with a phone call if they REALLY wanted it so I would think that useing availability of BP as a reason for useing the phoney stuff is an excuse rather than a reason...but then that is the way of 21st century Anericana...good shooting to all whether you use BP, Pyro or horesfeathers down the tube.

 

[musketman]

anyone can order it with a phone call if they REALLY wanted it

Some can't, I realize that there is a minimum requirement at most places on the amount of cans ordered...

I couldn't afford to drop enough cash to buy 3 cans right now, let alone a case...

 

[peter]

I prefer black powder, had problems with ignition in my GPR when I used other stuff. Black powder cleans up faster with less effort also. Now as far as horse feathers go , I haven't tried them, but next time I go past one of them horse places I'll try to remember to stop and get some. how are they sold ? By pounds, bushels, bales, pecks ? :huh:

 

[peter]

By the way, here in N.J., a store cannot get a Black powder license unless it is more than 500 feet from any residence. Makes a lot of sense when you stop to consider that a gas station which has storage of at least 60,000 gallons of flammable/explosive fuel does not have this restriction. I'm not trying to change subject ,but this is one reason black powder is hard to find. I have to drive 35 miles to buy black powder. Keep in mind that N.J. is densely populated and the drive takes close to a hour each way.

 

[cayugad]

Where I live you would have to drive over 90 miles one way to get to a town big enough where you might be able to find black powder, let alone to buy it. I called all over down there and every store told me the same sad story about federal regulations etc.

So like you say, I order it on line. Some people having 5 -10 or 25 pounds of the stuff around the house would be more then their pocket book, insurance company, and their nightmares could handle. There are some landlords in the city that have right in their lease, no explosives allowed on the premise. This I know as a fact.

For those kind of circumstances, stepping back is impossible or not an option. Pyrodex on the other hand is an option. Easy to get in most places, dependable, easier to clean (although I do not find black powder all that bad for clean up), etc.

I personally am glad to see more people in the sport of muzzleloading. With the declining number of people leaving the shooting sports around here, and the animal rights people just waiting to pass law to stop me from hunting, the more people enjoying the sport of shooting and hunting the better for me. If it takes Pyrodex, Triple Se7en, Clean Shot or what ever to keep this sport alive, I am all for it....

 

Hokey smoke tg. I'm not tryin gto ruffle your feathers either, but pleeeeease understand that not everyone lives in the country where you can store b.p.
In a town not far from me a gunshop had to stop selling black because an uninformed city counsel passed a LAW against POSESSION of it!
In that town it's illegal to own a grain of it! PERIOD.
I lived in an apt. complexe where you were NOT allowed to possess weapons of anykind.
NO! everyone CAN NOT order it with a phone call.
You have to sign forms which REGISTER you, your name, address, age, phone number, etc, BEFORE you can purchase.
It ain't that simple. Now cut people a little slack that don't or can't order the MINIMIM 5 pounds, most wholesalers demand a minimum of 25 pounds, and they buy Pyro or T-7.
Be glad they are in the sport.
By the way, how many shots do YOU get for a pound of horsefeathers! :bull: :bull: :bull:

 

[tg]

my point was just that many times the so called unavailability of BP is used as an excuse when with some effort the real stuff could be had by most people, before pyro came out most found a way... I don't really care what people use, but the fact is pyro originaly was made to make it easier to shoot/load/ clean....a way to avoid some of what was originaly part of the sport.....that is what puts it on my s%&# list.

 

[bdarin]

Yeah, well this being New York (state slogan: The Vampire State), I MIGHT be able to get the real thing in Buffalo, but not sure (will call Monday). Can't even get Pyro at Gander Mtn. in Erie Co. They've been open two years now and are still awaiting their license to sell powder. I can only get Pyro in Niagara Co., no real stuff sold there either. Looks like it's Pyrodex or no shooting at all for this pilgrim. :m2c: eace: