Question about 2f and 3f

[JRI]

I am rather new to muzzleloading,I am currently using 60 grains of 3f in a Fox River Fifty ,50cal 1-48" with a patch and round ball.

I bought this used and of course it did not come with an instruction manual.

What I am wondering is if I were to use 2f,would I use the same 60 grain charge,or would it need to be adjusted up or down?

Also,is a 60 grain charge actually too much or could I increase it,and if so,what would be maximum? And,what would be a good overall charge for general target shooting?

Sorry about all the dumb questions,but I don't want to spoil the fun I have been having entering the wonderful world of traditional muzzleloading!

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

 

[jtmattison]

Welcome aboard Jeff!

The 60 grain charge of 3f you are using is a good target load. If you want equal velocities using 2f you will have to up your charge 10-15%.
I don't know what the max recommended charge is for your rifle but you should be able to go up 100 grains of 2f safely. Try the manufacturers website for a manual.

Good luck!

HD

 

[JRI]

Welcome aboard Jeff!

The 60 grain charge of 3f you are using is a good target load. If you want equal velocities using 2f you will have to up your charge 10-15%.
I don't know what the max recommended charge is for your rifle but you should be able to go up 100 grains of 2f safely. Try the manufacturers website for a manual.

Good luck!

HD

Thanks! Great advice!
I will try the manufacturer's website (never even gave it a thought) to check.

Thanks again!
Jeff

 

[Semisane]

Hey JRI, here are a series of e-mails you may be interested in between me and Traditions ([email protected])on the Fox River.

There is a used Traditions "Fox River" model sidehammer 50 caliber muzzleloader advertised on a local web site that I am considering buying, but can't find any info about it on your web site or elsewhere. Can you tell me when these guns were made, who made them, and the approximate MSRP of the gun?

Any help appreciated.

=====

Good Morning XXX,

The Fox River Fifty was an exclusive model that we imported back in 1995 for Gander Mountain. At that time GM sold them for approx. $99 for the blued barrel, beech wood model. They were manufactured by Ardesa, the Spanish firearm manufacturer that makes all of our muzzleloading long rifles and single shot pistols.

Thank you for your interest in Traditions muzzleloading rifles. If we can assist you further in the future, please let us know.

Thanks,

Customer Service
Traditions

Thanks much. Now, I'm going to ask some questions you probably can't answer. But here goes.

- This rifle has a drum and nipple ignition system. Was there a flintlock model?

- Can this percussion rifle be converted to flint by replacing the drum with a vent liner, and changing the lock?

- If so, are either liners or locks available?

Thanks,

The Fox River Fifty rifle was never offered in a flintlock version, only percussion. It cannot be converted to flintlock. We don't sell flash holes or bolster drums for our rifles and we do not recommend the removal of your bolster drum as they are safely installed by the manufacturer. Removal of this piece can cause a dangerous situation which we strongly DO NOT RECOMMEND.

If we can provide further information for you, please let us know.
Thanks,

Customer Service
Traditions

 

[JRI]

Wow! Thanks for the messages!

Very interesting information,LOL! it sounds to me like it is an "el cheepo" rifle,I will eventually replace it with a better quality muzzleloader in the not too distant future.

Thanks again,
Jeff

 

[boar]

I have a bunch of Spainsh made guns,doz. I have killed two bucks the last two years with a .50 Bobcat, 50.00 gun. I use 80grs 2ff RB, does the job. Reason I have been carrying it for deer is it is light,old age thing. I use a .50 CVA hawken in matches using 60 grs. Don't sell them out too quick. All mine shoot good. All guns will have a few issues. My first flinter was a 45 CVA Kentucky. Shot my first ML groundhog and squirrel with it. I would have kept it if it would of had a better lock. Lock time was too slow for me. Dilly

 

[JRI]

I have a bunch of Spainsh made guns,doz. I have killed two bucks the last two years with a .50 Bobcat, 50.00 gun. I use 80grs 2ff RB, does the job. Reason I have been carrying it for deer is it is light,old age thing. I use a .50 CVA hawken in matches using 60 grs. Don't sell them out too quick. All mine shoot good. All guns will have a few issues. My first flinter was a 45 CVA Kentucky. Shot my first ML groundhog and squirrel with it. I would have kept it if it would of had a better lock. Lock time was too slow for me. Dilly

Well,I believe you are right!
Mine has been shooting very accurately,and I have not had any issues with it.
Eventually,I want to add a few more muzzleloaders to my collection,they are so much fun!

I haven't taken mine hunting yet,but I have been seriously considering taking it out during our primative weapons season.

Thanks again,
Jeff

 

[Keppy]

Welcome to the forum. You are going to get alot of diffrent advice here on loads. But as I know more powder doesn't mean better accuracy. Your barrel can only burn so much powder and the rest is on the ground in front of you. So I find that sweet load and just go with it. If your hunting placment of the shot is the key in a clean kill. I have used 2F and 3F with good results. In my 58cal. and 12ga I prefer 2F. My 45 cal. and 54 cal. I use 3F. Good luck.

 

[Stormrider51]

A general rule on powders is 3f for rifles up to .45 cal and 2f for those above. This puts the .45 in a position of using either one well. You will probably find that 2f leaves more fouling.

Powder charges are something you just have to play with. More is not always better. Start with 50 grains and shoot five shots for accuracy. Go up 10 grains and shoot five more shots, etc. Somewhere you should find a load that gives the best accuracy. I personally would not go above 70 grains with your rifle. There are two reasons for this. First, the 1:48" twist will raise pressures faster than a slower twist barrel. Second, your rifle has a drum and nipple screwed into the side of the barrel. This is a weak spot. I have seem a drum blow out. The rifle was a .45 cal, 1:66 twist, 13/16" across the flats. The powder charge was 110 grains 3f. It was exciting. Better safe than sorry.

Storm

 

[paulvallandigham]

Jeff: To find out the maximum powder charge your .50 cal. rifle barrel will burn, multiply the length of the barrel by 2.2580. That will give the the maximum efficient burn load regardless of projectile or granule size. That does not mean you can't put more powder in the gun. Many do, believing they get flatter shooting using more powder. You can record more velocity using more powder, but its all lost quickly in the first 25-50 yards, where you didn't need any more velocity in the first place.

If you determine that maximum charge, drop the amount of that charge by about 10% and work on shooting groups at 50 and 100 yards with that load. You can go up and down 5 grains, and then 2 grains to find the best of the loads. Then try different patch lubes to see what seems to work best to give you the best, smallest and consistent groups. That should be your hunting load. IF you drop your load down to 50-60 grains, you should find a mild target load. For close range work, at 25 yds and less, you can reduce the powder charge even further, to between 25 and 30 grains, to find a quiet load that will still kill rabbits and squirrels. I use FFg in my flintlock Fifty. I would probably use FFFg in any .50 caliber percussion gun, instead, because of the ignition characteristics of FFFg powder under a percussion cap.

 

[roundball]

I use Goex 3F in .40/.45/.50/.54/.58/.62cals, caplocks & Flintlocks, rifles & smoothbores, PRBs & shot loads...3F is faster, cleaner, and very accurate.

 

[smallmouth]

RJI,
You'll see many different opinions on the 2F vs. 3F debate. Most go on the caliber 45 being 3F and 50 caliber and up, 2F. The only problem is that the guy I respect the most as hunter, shooter, builder, historian type shoots 80 grains 3F in his 54 caliber flintlock. Part of the muzzleloading fun is figuring out some of the fine points yourself. One piece of advice, is be somewhat patient moving up too fast on the loading toward the max. IMO it is seldom necessary. Work first for accuracy and consistency.

Real black powder smells sweet to me!

Sirjohn

 

[jb shiner]

will this formula of barrel length x 2.2580 work for all calibers or just the 50 cal. THANKS

 

[roundball]

"...You'll see many different opinions on the 2F vs. 3F debate. Most go on the caliber 45 being 3F and 50 caliber and up, 2F.

And it's not a debate based on logic or facts, its just old wives tales handed down over the centuries to the point where its become unchallenged folklore instead of science.

Blackpowder is blackpowder...4F, 3F, 2F, etc, granulations of a given run of mix at the mill are all made from the very same lot of mix...they're just screened out differently based on their different sizes.

Caliber doesn't dictate it's use...its the same black powder...just different size kernels that burn at different rates so as long as the pressure difference is compensated for with the 10-15% reduction in charge size when substituting 3F for 2F load date, its the same thing...ie: use 85grns 3F in place of 100grns 2F. And there's no debating that smaller granulations burn faster and cleaner than larger granulations.

:thumbsup:

 

[Runner]

The Ardessa breeches have the drum threaded all the way past the powder chamber, and then the chamber is bored into the drum from the side. The same force that would blow a drum out also pushes the other way trying to keep it in. If a Traditions drum blows out, there is something a lot more wrong than the design!
I have fired 100 grain loads under 385 grain conicals in many Ardessa barrels. I tested 3f 777 under conicals and roundball in an Ardessa barrel. I will never admit how much that last shot burned, but it spread the forestock wide enough to pull one end of the key cracking the stock almost the full length of the ramrod channel and around both wedge plates. The barrel is fine and in fact, is being converted to flint right now. The new stock is pretty much finished!
The Ardessa breech is plenty strong. That part they did right.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Just .50 caliber.

The "Davenport" formula is 11.5 grains per cubic inch of barrel.

To find the cubic inch, you first determine the diameter of the bore, divide it by two to get the radius, and then multiply the radius times itself( squaring the radius), and then multiply that number times PI( 3.1416) to get the area. of the bore. I multiple that times the 11.5 to get that coefficienct for each caliber. Then its simple to multiply that coefficient times the various barrel lengths to complete the formula and get the total powder for the cubic inches of barrel. You have to scratch your memory, unless you are a math person, or engineer, to remember the formula you learned in high school, or Jr. High, I suspect these days, to determine the area, and then cube of a circle/cylinder. Area of a circle it PiR squared. Then you determine the length of the cylinder( bore) and multiply that coefficent times the length, to get the cubic space, and then multiply that number times 11.5 grain, to get the max. charge of powder the barrel will burn.

Since the length of barrel various from one gun to the next, and even within models made by the same manufacturer, its easier to do it my way. I have a table I set up for most of the common caliber sizes, that gives me the max. powder charge in 2 inch increments from 28 to 44 inches. That covers most of the rifles mentioned here. When someone has a 46, 48, or 24 inch barrel, I use the coefficient number I have recorded for each caliber to make the process a short one using a pocket calculator.

Between my brother and I, we have tested this formula on a half dozen guns of different barrel lengths, and bore diameters, using a chronograph. In addition, Phil Quaglino, who gave my brother the formula to share with me, and all of you, has tested the formula on hundreds of guns he has built over the years. Phil holds several National ML rifle records at Friendship, in addition to several Pistol records.

As I have stated before, he got the formula from Nathan Merrill, a Past President, and founding member of the NMLRA, who knew Charles Davenport, the late Chief of Naval Ordinance during both WWI and WWII, and an NMLRA member. Since WWII, the use of cannon, and black powder has diminished, and most of the firepower on naval warships today come from rockets, and gatling guns. The huge cannon barrels and their car-sized shells have gone the way of all good things, with the Missouri being decommissioned about 10 years ago. There may be a few destroyer class ships armed with 5 inch guns, but those will be the last of the cannon mounted war ships in our naval fleet.

I only hope that the Navy is not making a mistake. I just saw a piece on international piracy in the Indian, and Pacific Oceans, and apparently there is also piracy going on in the carribean sea. Those 30 and 40 mm gatling guns are impressive weapons, but they have no where near the range that the cannons have, much less the accuracy at those longer ranges.

 

[Runner]

You think a 600 pound flash bang at about 50 feet above the water might make em a little more managable, do ya Paul?
The last video I watched claimed they could hit a football field at 36 miles! Now, that is a varmint rifle.

 

[Walks with fire]

I like 3f in my .50 calibers. My barrels run from 21" to 32" and I believe I can get more velocity with the faster powder. They are all flinters too! Try both and see what shoots best. Goex 3f works great for me but I also like Swiss for hunting loads.

 

[paulvallandigham]

My only concern is that without the heavy guns, you have to let those pirates get close enough to fire their Rocket Propelled Grenades( the cheapest "artillery " the bad guys are using these days) at you before you are assured of being able to take them out. I would rather we be able to take them out long before they get within range of using any firearm, or RPG on commercial boats. I do think that the Reagan Doctrine of going after anybody that attacks Americans, wherever they are, and either arresting them to bring them back for trial, or killing them needs to be pursued with all deliberation. Its the effectiveness of the Mossad in getting the people who kill Israelis that has made terrorists decide Not to terroize, kidnap, maim, murder, etc. Israeli citizens abroad. Its the armed guards on El Al that keep those planes from being skijacked. Unfortunately, for all the bunny huggers, the rest of the world is not full of people with outstretched arms waiting to welcome American Aid. They are only interested in gaining power in their own countries by " killing the Great Satan".

Like it or not, we are THE Target for terrorists. Its now the Europeans who have become the targets for Kidnappings, because their governments have pursued the route of Appeasement, rewarding these pirates by willingly paying huge sums of money to gain the return of their nationals. Ask The Late English Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain(1938) if Appeasement works! Hah! :thumbsup: