question about antlered vs antlerless tags

[elbanma1]

Background - I recently harvested my first deer (a spike) with a muzzleloader at 40 yds. (CVA hawkin i buiilt from a kit, 0.490 round ball with 0.10 patch, 80g FFg goex). I ask this question here in the hunting forum because I only hunt blackpowder during all legal seasons in virginia.

My question is as follows, in virginia you are allowed 6 deer a year, maximum of three antlered but all 6 may be antlerless. however, during different seasons, different counties, and different days of the season there are restrictions about taking antlerless deer. My question is as follows, if the state DNR feels that it would be ok for the herd for each hunter to harvest 6 deer a year and that all 6 could be antlerless, what do they care about when I harvest them. my predicament this year was that i had been hunting quite often and an ethical shot had not presented itself besides a small 6 point that i missed (first shot at a deer period). I have had several chances to harvest does throughout the season but had to pass because they were not allowed on that particular day. So i waited for a buck and the spike was the first that presented itself. Again, i would prefer to harvest a mature buck or a doe (and several doe had passed my stand during the morning before i shot the spike), but with the restrictions the way they are and the season winding down, what choice do i have. thoughts?? :hmm:

 

[jethro224]

Only God knows WHY they make some rules. :youcrazy:
It's cheaper to stick to 'em tho.

The only way to kill a mature buck is to hunt as smart and as often as possible and don't shoot the little ones...

Congrats on the spike! :hatsoff:

 

[mikee51848]

Sounds like your state does not practice HR and AR. In PA, we have both, and it has caused arguments ever since. :cursing: You either like it, or you hate it. Now, you have one hunter harvesting a massive 8 ptr, and nine others who never even see a deer.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The rules are written in part to give other hunters an opportunity to take game, and not necessarily guarantee you that you will fill all your tags. I would be called " Getting " instead of "Hunting " if that were the case. So, you don't fill a couple of tags. Join the rest of us. Don't be a game hog.

As to your argument that the state thinks its okay for every hunter to take 6 deer a year, that is simply not true. The number of permits issued each year is based on hunter success in past years, and data collected that show what portion of the deer TAKEN are buck, does, yearlings, and other information that allows the State to manage the deer herd.

 

[RC]

well seems to me,without the restrictions..you'd have killed doe....with restrictions, you didn't,so there's still deer to hunt,if no restrictions,how many deer you gonna have left? soo evidently it does matter and they do care... (and i can't believe i'm sayin that!) never understand how/why they can allow the POSSIBILITY of that many deer being killed...with 9 days to go in n.y. between 4 of us we had 14 tags(could've had more!) 12 were fer doe only,,,that's just 4 guys! imagine HOWmany could be killed? that's sad! RC :shocked2:

 

[jethro224]

Sounds like your state does not practice HR and AR. In PA, we have both, and it has caused arguments ever since. :cursing: You either like it, or you hate it. Now, you have one hunter harvesting a massive 8 ptr, and nine others who never even see a deer.

I'm guessing AR is antler restrictions? What is HR?

In Illinois we are only allowed 2 antlered deer per year regardless of what tags we purchase. All seasons included; Firearm, Muzzleloader, and Archery. We have lots of deer and a short gun season. No antler spread/point restrictions. 3 inches = an antler.
We are allowed to shoot as many does as we care to buy tags for.
For a year or 2 we could fill as many archery either-sex tags as we could too.
I like the limit of 2 antlered deer per year. If you like to hunt big bucks, you are more likely to let the small ones walk when you can't take more than 2.

 

[elbanma1]

Thanks for the replies, I Dont mean to come across like a game hog, just trying to understand the restrictions. I agree that the current number of tags is based on past success rates (assuming of course everyone is honest in reporting their kills, which of course they aren't). It seems to me that the same effect of harvesting X number of deer in a year could be accomplished if they issued a smaller number of tags (perhaps, 2 tags antlered or antlerless) and then lift the restrictions about when these animals could be harvested. It also seems to me that if they wanted more taken they could sell additional tags at a nominal fee for those who want to harvest more deer. I guess I am saying that they forced my hand to take a spike when I really had no interest in doing so.

 

[bob1961]

I'm guessing AR is antler restrictions? What is HR?

herd reduction :v .............bob

 

[RC]

part that really scares me...back awhile ago..10-15 years(?) in n.y. they had an "extra deer permit" was buck or doe and took 4 licensed hunters to apply for one...then at seasons end you had to send in tag..filled or not..that was good,i think, then they decided you only send it IF you filled the tag...success rate went DOWN 33% first year! so they put out more permits then next year cause the previous years kill was so far down...SAD! HELL! STUPID! was at a whitetail seminar a while ago,first thing the dec guy said "don't worry! the whitetail will never be extinct" i said" that's what they said about buffalo" he said "buffalo are not extinct!" i said "when's the season open?" hmm no response.. see they're "controlling the deer population.....if there's too many,they lower the herd numbers if there's too few...they still have a job! that :cursing: :cursing: me! sorry ya got me goin,,,,,, RC :redface:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Actaully, the game departments even take into consideration the number of deer poached in setting the season lengths, and the number of permits allowed. Right now, most states have more deer than they want, and the deer/auto accident numbers are causing the Insurance Lobby to scream bloody murder. The old practice of letting hunters take Bucks was designed to get more hunters in the field. By leaving the does relatively untouched, the size of the herds grew and grew. Now, the departments are under pressure to reduce the size of the deer herd because of accidents and rising crop damage. Mild winters have also allowed the herds to survive well, when winterkill is usually a big factor in maintaining herd numbers. The game department are trying to reduce the deer herd by encouraging hunters to shoot more does. However, if you want more bucks, you are going to have to be selective in how many, and what age of the does you shoot. Otherwise, you will see a precipitous drop in deer numbers, both bucks and does, and it will take several years for the herd size to grow back to reasonable numbers. That happened a few years ago in East Central Illinois, where I live, and for three or four years, the Dept. imposed a limit in 6 counties on the number of does that could be killed during the first month of archery season. I believe that restriction has now been lifted.

If you have to hunt something after your freezer is full, HUNT POACHERS. These thieves do a lot of damage to game populations, as they shoot them all year round, and usually sell the carcasses whole to others for $100 each or more. If you want to know how someone who does not have a steady job, but is driving an expensive truck or SUV around all the time, he's either selling dope, or poaching game. Its really big business. I only wish that the Dept. would focus on busting the people who buy the meat, and make a big, public case out of that arrest. If they would dry up the demand for poached game, the profit motive would disappear, and the poachers would have to go sell dope, instead, where law enforcement seems to be able to arrest people fairly easily, all the time.

Just my $.02

 

[jethro224]

I'm guessing AR is antler restrictions? What is HR?

herd reduction :v .............bob

Thanks Bob. Now I git it!

Aren't the hunters the ones who are ultimately in charge of herd reduction? The dept. can't "force your hand" and make you shoot any deer. If 90% of the hunters never even see a deer then they dang sure shouldn't shoot the one they do see.

Just because you bought a tag doesn't mean you HAVE TO fill it. I take home unfilled tags every year. 9 times out of 10 it's by choice. I let the small bucks walk in hopes that they will grow into big bucks. Self-imposed antler restrictions??? Sometimes they get shot by another hunter, sometimes they don't. If I had shot 'em they would NEVER get any bigger. It works. I've gone home many times with unfilled buck tags, and then I've got a few dandys.
I almost always get a doe or 2 every year. Trying to do my part to keep the population down, and they taste delicious. And I "got my deer".
There were a couple of years in the mid-90's when I went home deerless. One year I passed up a button buck twice on opening day and then never saw another deer. Another year the only deer I saw was a huge buck.... with one main beam broke off down to a stub. I let him walk too.

I don't know beans about the deer hunting situation in Pennsylvania, but it seems to me that the hunters are ultimately the ones in charge of what gets killed. Your finger is on the trigger. It's your choice whether to pull it. And I don't want none of that :bull: about "if I don't shoot the neighbors will". The neighbors say the same thing about you.
If you want to see big bucks, don't shoot little bucks.
If you want to see lots of deer, don't shoot all the does.
That's my opinion. YMMV

 

[Bountyhunter]

Deer population numbers are governed by several things. First is the number of does. Second is the number of pregnant does.

Consider that old mature bucks begin going sterile at approximately six to seven years of age. That is natures own method of birth control. They are still large bodied and strong enough to whip the younger fertile bucks off their harems of does. Just this past season 30 days ago, I was on a high vantage point and watched an alpha buck defending his harem. As he fussed and fought with one group of satellite bucks, one other young buck came in and hit a couple does like popcorn then scooted for the safety of the trees.

Also consider that spikes are genetically deficient and never mature to become either large bodied or large antlered. You should kill them at every opportunity. I had a game warden ask me in the F&G office at Dodge City 3 years ago, "If you come on two bucks, one is a spike and one is a large buck, what should you do?" I said, I would take the large buck. He said, "Wrong, you kill the large buck and then you kill the spike while he is standing there wondering what is going on, and leave him lay. Tag the big buck and go home". Hmmmm, OK...I guess the coyotes have to eat too.

The point of this is, that your does need fertile bucks that are less than 6 years old. Just the same as managing any livestock herd, one male breeder can service up to 30 females. Spikes will breed on ocassion also and pass on the deficient genetics.

One last twist, depending on your location, your antlered deer can shed the antlers and become antlerless early depending on the weather. Kansas allowed a whole bunch of antlerless tags after Christmas several years ago. They got in a real panic when a lot of the deer brought into the check station were shed bucks......

 

[PreglerD]

In GE the deer management for roes and red deer is as follows.

2/3 of the hunted deers should be yearling and calves of both sex. The rest are so called harvest deers which are very old. The middleclass should only be hunted when they are ill or realy weak in condition. The relation male to female should be 1:1. This is the greatest problem, because many hunters want antlers and not does.But doe reduction is the way to a small, but strong herd. Only when you keep the number of does small the herd don't grow.When you hunt this way you can let good young bucks grow up to strong bucks. Because the number of bucks is realy uninteresting for the growth of the herd. You can have many bucks but less does, doesn't matter. But when you have even less or one buck and too many does the herd will grow up rapid. Because this one buck will copulate with all the does, and all does will get calves.

 

[jethro224]

As to spikes being genetically inferior, I think that is still up-in-the-air. I do believe that a mature buck with spikes is genetically inferior but have also read studies that have strong arguments that a yearling buck with spikes may have just had a slow start.

They say that a late-born buck fawn must put more energy and nutrients into growing his body in a shorter time, therefore he developes spikes his first year. By the time he is 2 or 3 years old he can catch up and even pass up his slightly older brothers/cousins.

Around here the main rut is in November. Most does get bred then. Any does that don't get bred or don't take in November will re-cycle in December. Then there will be a few again in January. Also many of the doe fawns from the year will come into estrous in December or January. I suppose there may even be some breeding into Febuary.

Anyway, these late-bred young does will throw late-born scrawny fawns which might be spike bucks next year. And might be big bucks a few years later. :hmm:
Young does also miss out on the best birthing/feeding places because the old does get territorial when raising young fawns.

This is what the "experts" have come up with in some studies. Makes sense to me. Old spike = inferior genes. Young spike = Who knows?

Healthy, big, prime-age does around here generally throw 2 or 3 big, healthy fawns. Usually earlier in the spring. Their fawns have a definite advantage in time and can eat more than enough nutritious food to grow good size bodies and racks. We see plenty of 6 and 8 point 1 1/2 year old bucks.

When you do shoot any buck there will be one less deer in the herd next year. When you shoot a big, healthy doe there will be 2 to 4 less deer in the herd next year. Yearling = 1 or 2 less next year.

:v

 

[jethro224]

Another thing about older spikes is that they tend to be more prevalent in over-populated herds where the deer do not get optimum nutrition.
Back to the age + genetics + nutrition equation. :hmm:

I'm lucky. Here in the farm-belt nutrition is seldom a problem.

 

[Maynerd62411]

Another thing about older spikes is that they tend to be more prevalent in over-populated herds where the deer do not get optimum nutrition.
Back to the age + genetics + nutrition equation. :hmm:

I'm lucky. Here in the farm-belt nutrition is seldom a problem.

Nothing beats them "corn-fed" deer. :thumbsup:
An 8 pt. that I got a couple of years ago was 1 1/2 yr. It wasn't HUGE, but it had a nice basket rack and weighed in around #130. In that area, it's a typical size deer. Down in the river bottoms, a few miles away, they get alot bigger at the same age. I wouldn't consider it to be inferier, just a different blood line. The next year, I got a fork-horn in the same area and the rack had the exact same shape as the 8 pt. They had to be from the same blood line. It weighed in at #120.
As far as antlerless, there used to be only certain counties that were open for late season, then handgun season, this year, all counties that have regular season are opened for antlerless , using unused tags. This tells you what the DNR is wanting, herd reduction.
There's not a single day,in the paper, that someone hasn't hit a deer, in Effingham or Shelby county, year round. HD is what is needed.
$.02

 

[rabjr]

Yep here you can count on a 2 year old Doe and older having 2+ fawns for sure.

Out in the bay, Prudence Island, Ive seen and have a pic somewhere of a set of 5 fawns! It was the craziest thing. Seen during the second week of Oct they were the smallest deer I've ever seen, their backs barely came even with their mothers belly, thats how small they were. I doubt any survived the first year.

I've seen probably a half dozen sets of Quads in 27 years of hunting the Island and can't begin to count the sets of Trip's I've seen over there.

 

[Bountyhunter]

My place is on the KS/NE line in grain country. One of the wildlife management shows on the Outdoor channel recently showed some tests they had run on a research farm in Texas. They had penned a bunch of fawns and picked the best and worst of the lot and penned them separte in the same pen. They were fed from the same bunk. One was a spike and one was a a small 4x4 at a year and a half. The spike finally became a small 3x3 when he was 4 1/2. He never progressed from that. The other buck with superior genetics became a 6x6 at 6 1/2 years old. The spike did not grow physically either as the other buck did.

This guy had picked up the sheds and had them mounted on a board to illustrate that what he was saying was that most of the size has to do with genetics and not with the chow.

Our herd seldom suffers for the want to eat. This year, it was really dry, and they were suffering to find drinking water, as the creek and ponds were dry. We could only find them around where there were cattle tanks.

My observation has been that once you identify a spike that if you dont kill him, you will see him year after year. It is now our objective to kill them the first time we see them. As such, we do not see then nearly as often as we used to. By eliminating the spikes and inferior genetics from our herd, and by killing the alpha bucks, we have more deer and larger deer. We see it the same as managing our cow herd.

 

[Halftail]

Background - I recently harvested my first deer (a spike) with a muzzleloader at 40 yds. (CVA hawkin i buiilt from a kit, 0.490 round ball with 0.10 patch, 80g FFg goex). I ask this question here in the hunting forum because I only hunt blackpowder during all legal seasons in virginia.

My question is as follows, in virginia you are allowed 6 deer a year, maximum of three antlered but all 6 may be antlerless. however, during different seasons, different counties, and different days of the season there are restrictions about taking antlerless deer. My question is as follows, if the state DNR feels that it would be ok for the herd for each hunter to harvest 6 deer a year and that all 6 could be antlerless, what do they care about when I harvest them. my predicament this year was that i had been hunting quite often and an ethical shot had not presented itself besides a small 6 point that i missed (first shot at a deer period). I have had several chances to harvest does throughout the season but had to pass because they were not allowed on that particular day. So i waited for a buck and the spike was the first that presented itself. Again, i would prefer to harvest a mature buck or a doe (and several doe had passed my stand during the morning before i shot the spike), but with the restrictions the way they are and the season winding down, what choice do i have. thoughts?? :hmm:

Supposed you lived up here where the only legal Deer is an antlered Deer,1 Deer only.
The success rates aren't very high either so when you get one you worked for it.
Ah but with Global warming coming into effect and our Climate up here getting warmer maybe we will be over run with Deer like so many southern states in the Not to distant future.

 

[elbanma1]

Just curious, how are you not overrun with does now. Are there natural predators which help keep the population under control.