Question about ignition time?

[TwoShadows]

I gots a question to add to some of this. If the spark off the cock/frizzen only travels as fast as the cock falls, Why is it that the sparks come off my firesteel at a much greater speed than I am hitting it. I cant agree that the ones off the cock travel at the same speed. I believe that they travel a bit faster...having been struck by a larger object, they move away faster than the colliding objects....not the least of which have been slowed somewhat by the collision. ::

 

[Huntinfool]

I agree with Stumpy (Dang now that's a scary thought!) :blah: A good solid hold and follow through is the most important thing.

You could test till you're blue in the face and never come up with a consistent answer. For one thing flintlocks will not spark perfectly the same everytime no matter what, sometimes they strike more sparks than others. The problem (if you want to call it that) is inconsistency. Each flint is a little different and so on the variables are more prevalent with a flinter that they are with a percussion.

When I'm hunting I always make sure my rifle is clean and dry and that I've got a great flint in there. So I'm confident that "Ol Heartbreaker" will go bang as fast as possible.

To my way of thinking if she hangs a little at the range no big deal but when I'm huntin' it's of utmost importance she goes off without a hiccup! Sometimes when at the range I will wipe the pan good and clean and forget that black buildup on the bottom of my flint. Well, if it's real humid that build up will get wet on the bottom of the flint and keep your sparks from being as effective. Since I've been paying attention to the bottom of my flint as well as my pan, I've reduced my hangfires and non-flashes in the pan to a minimum!
:m2c:

YMH&OS
Chuck Goodall
"The Original Huntin' Fool"
&
Kanawha Ranger Scribe

 

[roundball]

Same here...I shot 40 shots per range session, and in this high humid summer weather, I stop every 10 shots and clean the flint, frizzen, and pan squeaky clean with alcohol wipes...knap the flint a couple times and keep on shootin'

 

Joe....I'm thinking late 70's but the reason I didn't say was because I've slept since then. I also thought it was Muzzleloader but darned if I could remember for sure and for certain. I wonder if I'm normal in that I have lots of pieces of information in my head but I'm not always certain where they came from!!!!!

Vic

 

[Ohio Joe]

Vic,

I'm putting on the ol' eye glasses and starting to dig through my old issues of Muzzle Blast... You very well may be right, it may be in Muzzleloader... If I don't find it in MB, I'll look in ML...

 

[Ohio Joe]

Well I found something... Muzzle Blast, February 2000, "Touch Hole Ignition Timing", by Larry Pletcher, with Fred Stutzenberger... (Larry Pletcher also did a series of test in 1992 through MB)...

There is a lot of information here but for the sake of time consuming typing, I will just list the touch hole size and Average time of ignition through that touch hole...

Touch Hole Size: - Average Time:
.040 Straight Cylinder - 0.0744
.052 Straight Cylinder - 0.0528
.055 Straight Cylinder - 0.0474
.0625 Straight Cylinder - 0.0440
.0625 Cone on Outside(Center Drill) - 0.0406
.070 Straight Cylinder - 0.0408
.078 Straight Cylinder - 0.0445
.086 Straight Cylinder - 0.0418
.09375 Straight Cylinder - 0.0436

15 grains 3f was the prime...........................

Here is a start for anyone interested. I know I've read more on this, but it will take a while to locate... Hope this helps...

I might also add that they said when using the 1/16 (.0625), and larger touch holes, they had no misfires...

 

15grs.???????????????????????????? I use 4 to 5 gr. in the Bess with excellent results- just enough to cover the bottom of the pan. (It;s a big pan) In the rifle with the Dickert lock, I use 3 gr. for prime and it's always 4F.

 

[Ohio Joe]

Daryl,

I know... I only use 3 grains of 4f myself when priming my Dickert's "Siler" lock.

That was a misprint on my part... They loaded 15 grains of 3f, and primed to the bottom of the touch hole... They don't say how many grains they used to prime with?

Sorry about that. I should have caught that. It should have read the load was 15 grains of 3f... I don't know what lock they used to test with?

 

15gr. Prime is what was supposed to be used in the Model 1795 US Musket. This model was a copy of the 1763/66 Charleville with steel pan and goos3e necked cock.
: The issue ctg. at that time was an aproximately .64" cast ball and "165gr., 15gr. of which was for prime" for this .69 cal smoothbore.
: Even when reduced to 130gr. with the improvement of powder, and the .65" swaged ball, the prime was still supposed to be 15gr. This seemingly overly large amount of priming was probably to cover spillage when priming and then transferring the podwder to the muzzle of the gun after priming. Slamming a steel rod down the bore to seat a loose ctg., with a primed flinter, set at 1/2 cock isn't realy a very good idea for us to emulate. I would think a suseqent(after loading) priming step is safer for 'us', even though we 'should' have better muskets with better locks and safer 1/2 cock knotches. :yakyak:

 

[Herb]

Thanks, Ohio Joe. I'll just spell out my sad tale of woe and maybe you big boys can help me. I have a copy of a Jacob Wigle rifle I built. See Builder's Bench, "Re: Vent Liners vs. Plain Holes", my post of 4/20/04, for a picture of this rifle. It has a Dickert lock, and I built it with no vent liner, just a plain hole. Finally opened it up to .089. Worked MOST of the time, but just spit too much fire. Finally installed a 5/16 x 32 White Lightning vent liner. Right back against the breech plug. Now this has a deep cone on the inside and a hole about .052. Testing various lubes the other day, I fired 49 shots of 8 different loads. Used 3F Goex, new lot, and 3 grains of 4F in the pan, from Track's pan primer. Very low humidity here. I had THIRTY SEVEN flashes in the pan. I'd get a flash, then pick the vent hole. Frequently that went, but often not. (I might add that this test included wiping with a SLIGHTLY damp patch after every shot, once in and out. Now, what happens to that inside cone when you swab that fouling down against it? Probably fills up flush with the inside of the bore, thus not being a cone for powder any more?) If the picked vent hole didn't go, I'd prime the pan and tip the priming INTO the hole. Then it went- most of the time. Once, it went like this: Flash in pan (FIP)-Picked vent-FIP-Powder into Hole-FIP- figured I must have forgot the powder. Pulled the ball. Dropped my steel range rod in, thought I heard the clink of the brass jag against the breech face. Loaded with 40 gr 3F. It went that time- with a velocity of 2,173 fps, compared to the usual 1740 average. There was powder in there to begin with. I also tried 40 gr of 3F Swiss and 2F Swiss, and 60 gr of 2F Swiss (2117 fps), and had 10 FIP's before I gave up and picked first for the last three shots. I'm sure that vent hole isn't big enough, it is at the top line of the pan, but what would you big boys do?

 

[roundball]

Sounds like the hole is way too small...should be at least up around a .075" opening...that's the size in my vent liners and with Goex FFFg I can see the grains of powder perched in the window...never have pan flashes

 

[Stumpkiller]

How old is your FFFFg? Try priming with 3 gr. of FFFg. If you dry fire the lock do you get a lot of spark? Maybe the frizzen is tired and needs re-hardening. 0.052" is a TINY vent. They usually range from 1/16 to 1/10" (0.0625" to 0.1000") Yours is off the scale on the low side.

Wipe the frizzen, flint and pan after every shot with a dry patch (mind the sharp edge of the flint). After that, I stick a feather in the vent and proceed with the loading. This gives me a hollow INTO the main charge once pulled. I did a lot of model rocketry in my youth, and the fastest burning engines were the ones with a hollow right up through the propellent. I figure I'm better off introducing the flash as deep into the main charge as possible - instead of meeting granules at the edge of the vent. If any of those were damp from moisture left from wiping or residual lube: "Poof" with no "BLAM". Other folks like to see powder spilling out the vent when they load. This is OK as long as there is still an open channel. We all do things differently. The top of the prime charge should be below the level of the vent hole. You don't want it to have to burn it's way through to the vent hole or wait for the powder to burn it's way across. The flash travels faster than the burning.

When you say "it spit too much fire" do you mean you were losing hat brims? It's just the nature of the beast. I had a Bess style musket with a 1/8" vent (0.125") which was almost 100% sure fire; but the discharge was about equal at either end. :shocking: A real crowd pleaser. Before every shot I just relaxed my shoulders and breathing, and basically gave myself up for dead. It can be overcome, with practice. As long as I'm not feeling embers in my face I'm content. ALWAYS wear shooting glasses.

 

[RussB]

Am I reading into this that "bigger is better", when it comes to the flash hole?
Russ

 

[roundball]

Shooting glasses...

You got that right for sure...this past Saturday's range session had a strong wind straight into my face 10-15mph...and I noticed blowback every shot on my forehead...glasses kept it out of my eyes

 

[Stumpkiller]

"Bigger is better" only as far as ignition is concerned. And properly placed is just as important as size. BUT (big BUT - like a . . . never mind). But, the costs are reduced pressure (more powder required to attain similar velocity/energy with smaller vent), increased flash-in-the-line-of sight (and the potential flinch, collateral damage to bystanders, increased risk of eye discomfort (smoke, embers, knuckles of shooter to your dominant side, etc.))

Personally, :m2c: :imo: :results:, I want reliability above all these things, even *gasp* accuracy (which vent size doesn't effect directly). There's no takebacks when the thurty-point buck-of-a-lifetime pauses before you, illuminated grail between his massive antlers, heavenly trumpets sounding, shaft of sunlight penetrating the trees to bathe him in golden splendor, and you get a "Klack - poof".

I'd rather have a flintlock that puts five holes in 4" at 50 yards for five pulls of the trigger than one that puts 4 holes in 2" at 50 yards for five pulls of the trigger. Both cases may produce a "40 out of a possible 50" in target score, but you only get one shot per deer. Of course, I would REALLY like to have a 100% reliable flintlock that puts 5 holes in 1-1/2" at 50 yards for five pulls of the trigger; but this chile figures I has to wait for St. Peter to issue me that rifle along with the wings and the set of new eyes.

 

[RussB]

Stumpy, I do agree on the "going bang" every time. Ain't nothing more satisfying.

Birddog...Is it your opinion that the 1/16 mentioned is "just about right" for a flash hole?
Russ

I forgot to add that if it is, then I guess I need to look elsewhere.
Russ

 

[Zonie]

True story:
I had just finished a flinter and couldn't wait to get it to the range.
AIR I had over 4 flashes in the pan before it fired. I picked the vent between each pan loading.
After 20 minutes and 6 shots (with a number of mis-fires) I said ta H with it and proceeded to shoot the other guns I had with me.

When I got home I unscrewed the flash hole liner and LO! What do I see? The stupid gunmaker (me) forgot to trim off the liner so it was flush with the inside of the barrel!

At that time, I kept the vent pick in the touch hole while I was loading. I had read that this was the thing to do although I never figured out why. Anyway, the powder didn't get blown into the liner up against the touch hole while I was ramming the bullet. This left about 1/4 inch of open space between the touch hole and the powder. No wonder it wouldn't fire dependable.

Something to think about if your having a lot of mis-fires.

 

[Birddog6]

RussB: That is all depending on the individual & what they like. I probably have a dozen or so flintlocks here & I doubt if any of them have any less than a 5/64" dia vent in it, unless it be a lil 32 cal or something like that.

I start them with a 1/16" and them go from there. If I want a faster ignition, I drill it out more. For a gun I am building for someone, if it has a non-removable vent, I usually leave it at 1/16" and let them do open it if they want to. If I am building it with a removable vent liner, I usually make them 2 dif. ventliners so one is with 1/16" and 5/64 holes in them.

Custom Muzzleloaders & Custom Skinning Knives

 

[Herb]

Roundball- My 4F is a couple of years old, but never gave trouble in my other rifles. It flashes but doesn't get through that liner to ignite the main charge.
Stumpkiller- This highly touted White Lightnin' liner is made with a .052 hole. I could sure drill it out, but don't those people know how to make a good vent liner? At the moment I see little advantage to it. I have stuck a feather or a copper wire into my drilled hole before loading, but seating the ball blew it out. So I have to stick a wire in after loading. Three grains ain't much prime, especially if I have to tip some into the flash hole. I didn't lose hat brims, but my forehead got peppered. No real problem till I went to 65 grains of 3F, probably necessary for accuracy in this 1/66 twist .40 caliber. That was too much fire.

Birddog- Thanks. I know it has to be drilled out, but I wanted to thouroughly test it first. Discouraging. I'll contact Chambers, do they make it? I believe I'd rather have that cone on the outside with NO liner. I also believe that cone fills in with wiping between shots, and I'm not sure it cleans out. I base this on pulling that breech plug and finding a solid cake of fouling between the drilled hole and the breech plug, about 1/8 inch of plug. It didn't get cleaned out with my normal barrel cleaning, but I didn't use a breech face scraper. Will now. Wouldn't a half pan of powder be about 15 grains? Singe my eyebrows?

Zonie- I trimmed the liner to be flush inside the barrel grooves. A jag or patch doesn't hit it. Thanks everyone for your advice. I know what needs to be done, that hole has to be bigger, probably about .070. But it sure irks me that it won't work as built.

 

[LRB]

I concur with birddog6. I like a 1/16" vent if it works, and would not go beyond 5/64". I also put a small, but significant outside cone on the ones I use. I use the stainless liners from Dixie and open the cone much more than they come. Mine fire seemingly as fast as a cap gun, and some of my 4fg is left from the seventies.