Question about Morgan's Shingle

[Salty Cracker]

I believe every bit of it to be true. Tok many accounts of marksman abilities not to be.

 

[Salty Cracker]

To paraphrase the British officer writing back to his contemporaries in England he said before you come to the colonies make sure you put your affairs in order. There are men that can shoot you at 400 yards and most certainly take your head off at 200 yards. It's as if there was a rifle laid in they're cradle at birth.

 

[Adam in WI]

The next is :
..., described in the Virginia Gazette of September 9, 1775. Riflemen, bound for Boston, gave an exhibition. A man held between his knees a board five inches wide and seven inches long, with a paper bull’s-eye the size of a dollar. A rifleman at sixty yards, without a rest, put eight bullets in succession through the bull’s eye.

Oh my, lol. There better not be any ill will between shooter and target stand... circumcision at sixty paces, anyone?

 

[Wirehair]

..., described in the Virginia Gazette of September 9, 1775. Riflemen, bound for Boston, gave an exhibition. A man held between his knees a board five inches wide and seven inches long, with a paper bull’s-eye the size of a dollar. A rifleman at sixty yards, without a rest, put eight bullets in succession through the bull’s eye.

Apparently nobody experienced flyers back then.

 

[Blitz]

Hi,
Or Morgan's shingle is a myth. Perhaps it was 250 paces not yards.

dave

That is a good thought . In my work as a crane operator I was daily faced with calculating distance, in order to make safe picks. I began to rely on steping off distance and confirming ,at a much younger age , and found out that my normal pace was 2.5 feet and very reliable over level ground.
That surprised me because I and my friends grew up believing that an exzgerated pace was 3 feet . Possibly but not reliably so., at least not for me
I used 2,5 foot pace calculation for many years and confirmed by others quite often , with great accuracy and success, as time passed and I was not as able to visually estimate distances, not used for work, it became more important to step off the mark . This is of course not so usefull for hunting, as in work distance needs to be known beforehand and game is not usually cooperative.

Blitz

 

[Blitz]

Apparently nobody experienced flyers back then.

Anybody wonder why the text says bullets. The time reference is 1775. I do believe the feat to have been possible by a very experienced rifleman, but I would not try such in either position.

blitz

 

[Billy Boy]

Most of us have probably heard the story abut Morgan's Shingle where the test was to hit a roofing shingle at 250 yards. Well my question concerning this is at what range would most of these frontiersmen have had their rifles zeroed at? I got curious and loaded some data from my rifle into a ballistics calculator, in my rifle 90 grains of FFFg powder under a patched round ball gives an average velocity of right at 1850 feet per second. With those parameters and a 100 yard zero it would drop 61.3 inches at 250 yards and with a 200 yard zero it would drop 25 inches at 250 yards.

So with something the size of a shingle you would have nothing to reliably reference your hold over too. Now if it was against a tree that would solve the horizontal reference but not the vertical reference. So obviously if you are zeroed at 250 you are extremely high at closer ranges. Is there any historical record as to how the shoot was actually done was there something there to place vertical and horizontal reference for the shooter to align their sights. Or is this one of those things that has grown in history and the actual distance was much less than 250 yards?

I once shot the reproductive parts off a buck mosquito at 200 yds…….thru a heavy fog, yup, I swear to it. Most of those legends have quite a bit of the same content I think…

 

[Sun City]

Back in 2013-2015, I did some playing with long range shooting (out to 400 yards) using a well-worn original Dickert, for a total of about 2,500 shots. I've continued some experiments along those lines in the years since. In my limited experience, the effects of wind were the biggest problem, followed by range estimation. (BTW, using the load that gave the smallest groups at 50 yards, the Dickert was sighted to hit center at about 80 yards.)

This afternoon I took an 8" wide by 20" long piece of scrap wood (roughly the size of the last shake shingles I saw split), wedged one end in the backstop, then backed up 250 yards. The rifle I had with me is currently sighted for 75 yards. At 250 yards, I held the top of the blade above the top of the hindsight "a bit". Winds were in my face from my right, steady at about 15mph. Of ten shots I had 7 solid hits, two shots nicked the left edge of the board, and 1 was off to the left (so the wind wasn't as steady as I thought!).

 

[Sun City]

And a whole lot of it is PURE BS! There can be exceptions! Let me see if I can explain this such that what I know can be understood. With my Hawken flintlock I have standard barrel sights....the top of the rear sight is flat and the blade front is lower than most front sights I've seen on same type rifles but not so low that I can't use it for hunting at various distances. On my home range shooting 200 yards (back to 1500 yards if I desire) is not a problem and I have shot 200 yards with RB on several occasions and have seen some 5 shot groups of 9" quite regular. Shooting off a well made and solid bench, when I am in position and refining my sight alignment I place the top of the rear sight at the bottom of the front sight where it slides into the dovetail of the barrel and then I place the top of the blade front sight into the center of the AR500 plate that is my aiming spot. Essentially its the same type of sight alignment that old Elmer Keith used when he was shooting his .44 Magnum revolver out to 600 yards. Here's a sample showing use of a full buckhorn sight.

27482082143_3a21c2dd57_o by Sharps Man, on Flickr

 

[bullshot]

Friendship had a reentry match that shot steel "bear's" out to 200 yds. This was in the 70's but I don't recall the year. It was a timed match at banks of 5 targets starting at 50 yds. As I recall the bear was about the size of a man's upper body. I entered it once and recall hitting a bear or maybe two with my .54 flintlock rifle with fixed primitive sights. That was the only time I had shot the rifle at 200 yds. I used the technique SUN CITY describes. I did win a beautiful 20 ga barrel for second place. Hopefully some one else can recall more details about that match.

 

[tenngun]

We were at the Frank Fusco first annual shoot marijuana growers eat dead beef die of botulism memorial rendezvous about 1985.
On a bluff overlooking the Buffalo river. There was no one on the river.
About three hundred yards away there was a rock about man sized. We took to shooting it and after three or four shots could hit the rock
We moved on to the bank and found another, target about three hundred and fifty to four hundred yards. Again a few shots and we were dropping right around it with a few hits.
This was from a rest and with plenty of practice

 

[smoothshooter]

Most of us have probably heard the story abut Morgan's Shingle where the test was to hit a roofing shingle at 250 yards. Well my question concerning this is at what range would most of these frontiersmen have had their rifles zeroed at? I got curious and loaded some data from my rifle into a ballistics calculator, in my rifle 90 grains of FFFg powder under a patched round ball gives an average velocity of right at 1850 feet per second. With those parameters and a 100 yard zero it would drop 61.3 inches at 250 yards and with a 200 yard zero it would drop 25 inches at 250 yards.

So with something the size of a shingle you would have nothing to reliably reference your hold over too. Now if it was against a tree that would solve the horizontal reference but not the vertical reference. So obviously if you are zeroed at 250 you are extremely high at closer ranges. Is there any historical record as to how the shoot was actually done was there something there to place vertical and horizontal reference for the shooter to align their sights. Or is this one of those things that has grown in history and the actual distance was much less than 250 yards?

Reference points or or rear sight adjustments are not needed for hitting targets at long range with any rifle for all but the most precise shooting.
I grew up doing stuff like that ( I’m 67 now ) and so did most of my friends and relatives that shot ( which was almost all of the men and boys ), and am amazed that more people don’t know the dead nuts simple technique.
Maybe it’s becoming a lost art with the urbanization and suburbanization of society.

 

[smoothshooter]

That is true but no matter how well you know your rifle at 250 yards if you don't have something to reference your sights to you aren't going to hit much. That is the part I am trying to figure out is what did they reference their sights to. I realize it is probably lost to history but it is just something I have been intrigued with lately.

It is not completely lost to history.
I have been doing it since I was about 9 years old, starting with my .22 rifle.
Very easy. Works with pistols too.

 

[Rifleman1776]

We were at the Frank Fusco first annual shoot marijuana growers eat dead beef die of botulism memorial rendezvous about 1985.
On a bluff overlooking the Buffalo river. There was no one on the river.
About three hundred yards away there was a rock about man sized. We took to shooting it and after three or four shots could hit the rock
We moved on to the bank and found another, target about three hundred and fifty to four hundred yards. Again a few shots and we were dropping right around it with a few hits.
This was from a rest and with plenty of practice

Great memory Tenn. Love your characterization of the event. For those who don't know, Frank Fusco is me, Rifleman1776.

 

[Sam squanch]

I’m not sure if riflemen back then would be willing to waste the powder and lead on an iffy shot. Probably the most well known shot in the company was chosen to snipe at long distance.

 

[Tumbledown]

I’m not sure if riflemen back then would be willing to waste the powder and lead on an iffy shot. Probably the most well known shot in the company was chosen to snipe at long distance.

Iffy in our eyes, perhaps. It was war, every shot was iffy. Hell, just living to see the end of the day was iffy. So if they saw a target and felt they could hit their mark, pulling the trigger was never a waste.

 

[nchawkeye]

A well know account from Colonel George Hanger on the accuracy of American Riflemen...


Colonel Tarleton and myself were standing a few yards out of a wood, observing the situation of a part of the enemy which we intended to attack. There was a rivulet in the enemy’s front, and a mill on it, to which we stood directly with our horses’ heads fronting, observing their motions. It was an absolute plain field between us and the mill, not so much as a single bush on it. Our orderly-bugle stood behind us, about three yards, but with his horse’s side to our horses’ tails. A rifleman passed over the mill-dam, evidently observing two officers, and laid himself down on his belly, for in such positions they always lie to take a good shot at a long distance. He took a deliberate and cool shot at my friend, at me, and the bugle-horn man.[1] Now observe how well this fellow shot. It was in the month of August and not a breath of wind was stirring. Colonel Tarleton’s horse and mine, I am certain, were not anything like two feet apart, for we were in close consultation how we should attack with our troops, which laid 300 yards in the wood and could not be perceived by the enemy. A rifle ball passed between him and me. Looking directly to the mill, I evidently observed the flash of the powder. I directly said to my friend, “I think we had better move or we shall have two or three of these gentlemen shortly amusing themselves at our expence.” The words were hardly out of my mouth when the bugle-horn man behind us, and directly central, jumped off his horse and said, “Sir, my horse is shot.” The horse staggered, fell down, and died.

 

[Sun City]

A well know account from Colonel George Hanger on the accuracy of American Riflemen...


Colonel Tarleton and myself were standing a few yards out of a wood, observing the situation of a part of the enemy which we intended to attack. There was a rivulet in the enemy’s front, and a mill on it, to which we stood directly with our horses’ heads fronting, observing their motions. It was an absolute plain field between us and the mill, not so much as a single bush on it. Our orderly-bugle stood behind us, about three yards, but with his horse’s side to our horses’ tails. A rifleman passed over the mill-dam, evidently observing two officers, and laid himself down on his belly, for in such positions they always lie to take a good shot at a long distance. He took a deliberate and cool shot at my friend, at me, and the bugle-horn man.[1] Now observe how well this fellow shot. It was in the month of August and not a breath of wind was stirring. Colonel Tarleton’s horse and mine, I am certain, were not anything like two feet apart, for we were in close consultation how we should attack with our troops, which laid 300 yards in the wood and could not be perceived by the enemy. A rifle ball passed between him and me. Looking directly to the mill, I evidently observed the flash of the powder. I directly said to my friend, “I think we had better move or we shall have two or three of these gentlemen shortly amusing themselves at our expence.” The words were hardly out of my mouth when the bugle-horn man behind us, and directly central, jumped off his horse and said, “Sir, my horse is shot.” The horse staggered, fell down, and died.

I'd say THAT was a poor example of accuracy of American Riflemen

 

[Wireforhire]

I'd say THAT was a poor example of accuracy of American Riflemen

I doubt the horse was his target...WZ

 

[smoothshooter]

And a whole lot of it is PURE BS! There can be exceptions! Let me see if I can explain this such that what I know can be understood. With my Hawken flintlock I have standard barrel sights....the top of the rear sight is flat and the blade front is lower than most front sights I've seen on same type rifles but not so low that I can't use it for hunting at various distances. On my home range shooting 200 yards (back to 1500 yards if I desire) is not a problem and I have shot 200 yards with RB on several occasions and have seen some 5 shot groups of 9" quite regular. Shooting off a well made and solid bench, when I am in position and refining my sight alignment I place the top of the rear sight at the bottom of the front sight where it slides into the dovetail of the barrel and then I place the top of the blade front sight into the center of the AR500 plate that is my aiming spot. Essentially its the same type of sight alignment that old Elmer Keith used when he was shooting his .44 Magnum revolver out to 600 yards. Here's a sample showing use of a full buckhorn sight.

27482082143_3a21c2dd57_o by Sharps Man, on Flickr

This is the exact method I was referring to!
The main advantage is that you never cover up your target with the front sight.
Thanks for posting the illustrations.
I would have liked to have posted something like that, but I do not have the computer skills to do it.