Questions about a real St. Louis Hawken

[jdkerstetter]

Here's a link: http://www.donstith.com

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[LaBonte]

I'll add more later with pics but yes there are at least two brass mounted Hawken Mountain rifles (plains rifle is a 20th Century collectors appellation - Hawken adverts from the period are for mountain or California rifles -plains rifle is NEVER mentioned in any of the period literature). There are also several Hawken rifles made for the local trade with brass fittings and even some mountain rifles with silver fittings.

as for the butt plates - the hand made ones from 1825 (when the Bros Hawken combined forces so to speak - FYI - Jake was in St Louis in 1818, Sam in 1822, but they did not become J & S Hawken until 1825) up until circa 1850-52 were not forge welded - the two pieces were joined via an angled rivet and then brass brazed in the forge the same method used to make So Mtn Rifles. Post 1850-52 there were cast butt plates and trigger guards(examples the Bridger Hawken and the Carson Hawken both have cast butt plates and trigger guards).

A piece of advice - to make a "correct" Hawken mountain rifle pick out one and make a copy - while there are a few (VERY few makers such as Don Stith or Louie Parker) who can make a correct Hawken based on the variables, most folks who have not examined originals like the two gents mentioned are best advised to pick one rifle and use that for their "muse". There are in fact lots of variables and unless you REALLY know what you're doing mixing and matching of those variables will wind up with something that is not a Hawken. i.e. There are some big differences between an 1830's J & S Hawken mtn rifle and an 1850's or later Sam Hawken.
On the other hand one can make a "mountain rifle" that is similar to the Hawken as did other period makers.

 

[LaBonte]

re: the trigger guard cut off that spur and you will come close to this original guard

this is one of the two Hawken mtn rifles I know of with brass fittings

the other is the upper rifle in this pic

unfortunately far too many folks base the style only on the most commonly viewed post 1849 Sam Hawken half-stocks - while many of the post 1849 Sam Hawkens are more or less standardized, there are still lost of variations including full stocks and so far the ONLY verifiable flint Hawken.

 

[sc45-70]

Was brass trigger guards ever used on the origionals?[/quote]

http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ct_key=28970&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.12v1.jpg
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ct_key=32976&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.14v5.jpg
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ect_key=36107&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.5v5.jpg

I can't believe it, I helped someone with a computer question. That's a first!

I think J.D. answered all your questions!

SC45-70

 

[jdkerstetter]

There you go!!! Great post. Thanks for filling in the details....it's always in the details.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Another helpful post. I want to thank you guys for turning us on to this "Buffalo Bill Historical Center Digital Collection" site. What a great resouce!

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[sc45-70]

If you think their web sight is good, you should see the collection in person. IT'S FANTASTIC!

If you are ever in Cody Wyoming you have to go there!

SC45-70

 

[50cal.cliff]

Thanks to all! Labonte I know the devil is in the details. When I get ready to do the build I am asking all these questions about I will pick one rifle and stick with it for copying.

Right now I am learning mode and I want to learn every thing I can. So yes I am tending to stray from rifle to rifle!

JD thanks for all your info!
SC45-70 thanks, yes you did actually help someone with a PC question. My kids use to laugh at Dad struggling to do something on the computer! Then they would walk up and do something Dad had been trying to do for an hour in two seconds! :idunno: Now day I have a son in law that is computer wizz kid. He fixed my PC when I did a clean up and crashed the entire hard drive! :shake:

Thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread. Every once in a while I get up the courage to withstand the ire of all purists and ask what I feel are the pertinent questions!

 

[LaBonte]

A quick question Cliff - what is the barrel length and width on the Traditons Hawken? It appears to be fairly short and if so I would look close at something like the Carson or other late Sam Hawkens ( I have some pics) as a model since all short barrel Hawkens (except those cut down) are of the latter period.
Wayne Robidoux used to put out a full scale set of drawings of a later period Hawken that gave all the dimensions - unfortunately I can no longer find it online, but if a set could be found it's the meow when wanting to build an exact replica from scratch - other wise get a Don Stith of Hawken Shop kit.

BTW - in that other link you posted I show up as Anonymous aka Grey Wolf........

and as noted their are a lot of little details that are hard to see in photos - i.e. the lock plate panels are tapered from front to back - being wider at the front. The post 1849 Sam Hawkens (and some earlier ones) have a slight perch belly from the trigger plate to the butt plate and the fore end also has a slight belly. In later rifles the butt stock also thickens a bit between the butt plate and the wrist while earlier rifles are almost all slab(flat sided) in that area. Earlier rifles tend to have lock plate bolts that are proud of the side plate while later ones are inletted into the side plate, and side plate shapes varied over time as well

 

[50cal.cliff]

Chuck, the barrel on a Traditions, St Louis Hawken is 28" from end to hooked end (not including the hook or the tang), and the the barrel is 15/16" wide!

Thanks for the insight into my build and I will take the advice into consideration when I get started.

 

[50cal.cliff]

A quick question Cliff - what is the barrel length and width on the Traditons Hawken? It appears to be fairly short and if so I would look close at something like the Carson or other late Sam Hawkens ( I have some pics) as a model since all short barrel Hawkens (except those cut down) are of the latter period.
Wayne Robidoux used to put out a full scale set of drawings of a later period Hawken that gave all the dimensions - unfortunately I can no longer find it online, but if a set could be found it's the meow when wanting to build an exact replica from scratch - other wise get a Don Stith of Hawken Shop kit.

Chuck you mention you have pictures! I would love to see them. That might help me with this rebuild!

 

[54ball]

There is a lot of intricate workings on a true half stock Hawken that make building one that is a true accurate copy up from Traditions parts futile.

With that said there are parts available that look like Hawken parts and attach like a simple longrifle build.

Without making this post too long a true Hawken build is a challenging build even for an experienced builder. Others can explain why.

Here is some ideas to build your rifle.

Build it in fullstock.

This allows you to use pins and lugs instead of keys. Keys are much more difficult to fit.

With a fullstock you do not have to fit a nose cap above the entry pipe. For this build you may elect to not even have a nose cap at all. Being a 28" barrel you can say the rifle was cut down, as many originals were.

Get a stock with the lock not inletted. It's just easier even if you decide to upgrade your lock.
Also since your tang is short on the Traditions barrel you do not want a stock with that inlet either.

If I remember Traditions uses a 15/16 bbl. Measure to make sure.

Here some Track parts full a Hawken fullstock.

or

Drum and nipple would be fine since it could be a converted flintlock.
You could do this with these parts in a half stock. What I was referring being difficult, was original halfstock Hawkens.

 

[Herb]

sc45-70, the first rifle you reference is shown in Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III, Western U.S.", on page 390. Gordon says this rifle has brass trim, and that includes the buttplate, toe plate, trigger guard, lock bolt escutcheon, key escutcheons, patch box and maybe nose cap.

 

[Herb]

Re question "Is there a sight that looks more authentic that uses a circle aperture similar to what I need to be able to see the sights correctly?" Maybe 15 years ago I was in St. Louis at the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial, I think it was, a National Park Service museum. They had a halfstock Hawken in a glass case with just such a sight. I took a photo of it, but can't find it. The rear sight in its normal position looked like a buckhorn with a 1/4" flat washer soldered inside the horns.

 

[50cal.cliff]

54ball, I have no intention of trying to "make silk purse from a sow's ear", I know no matter what I do with this build it still will be a Traditions and I have no intention of trying to hide that with the final product of my build. I strive for information for two reasons.Thank you for the pics of the furniture!


I want to find out about original Hawkens because hopefully before I die I want to do a build to pass down to my son, and my quest is too be able to do one that is as close to an original as possible.

With the rebuild of this St.Louis Hawken I hope to do three things. Get it back up too shooting state as it's not much good without a stock.

The second thing I want to accomplish is too build/rebuild a rifle that Traditions would have/should have produced! One that anyone would be proud to call their own. Have no intention of trying to make it into a original Hawken just make it look like a better production model than what is out there!

The third thing is this I need the experience of doing a stock from scratch and what better way to learn in my opinion than too use the parts I have on hand. My only cost is the stock wood itself and if I decide too change a few parts. I still don't know if I want too go there on this one or not but,I have gained a little more knowledge with every time I get up in front of the shooting gallery!

Herb, I am glad to hear from you I love too pick your brain for knowledge. Your work just begs for that! :wink:

For some reason I pretty much thought brass was a taboo on the original Hawkens. I knew from reading and research German silver was used on some but when I looked at the Cody Firearms Museum site, and zoomed in on the rifles I begin too realize I might be wrong or at least if not my eyes were seeing wrong! :idunno:

Glad to hear about the sight you are talking about it lets me know that their was some out there who had the same eye problems I got way back then.

I can still see good at a distance but my arms got to short to read without my reading glasses and I found out that one day it became harder for me to consistently pick up the sight with a regular V. The circle aperture lets me pick up the sight easily without loosing my sight picture.

 

[sc45-70]

The last time I was at the Cody History center there was a HAWKEN half stock rifle trimed in german silver (I don't know why it isn't on the web sight).

I've seem several ORIGINAL HAWKEN rifles trimmed in brass

I stopped trying to tell people that the Hawken shop used brass because the HC-PC police always jump down my throat!

Now I just show the PROOF!

SC45-70

 

[rich pierce]

Brass guards, iron guards, etc- if they are based on original Hawken rifles and used on coherent builds patterned after specific originals, are fine by me. But to say, "they used brass guards, sometimes with a spur" and to then say any old brass guard with a spur is right for a Hawken build is a stretch many are not willing to make.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Brass guards, iron guards, etc- if they are based on original Hawken rifles and used on coherent builds patterned after specific originals, are fine by me. But to say, "they used brass guards, sometimes with a spur"

This is the picture that I referenced that question from Rich. I took it straight from the Cody Firearms Museum pictures. when you look at the main page, http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/CFMAction.cfm?PageNumToDisplay=1&url2pass=&CFMWord=Hawken

The rifle is on the 1st page and bottom row, second from the last on the right.

Here is a closeup of that rifle! http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ect_key=36107&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.5v5.jpg

Now I will grant you that one is labeled "firearm" only, not a Hawken!

However these next two are labeled, "firearm
Samuel Hawken, St. Louis, MO".

The first one is on the top row on that page, first one on the left! http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ct_key=32976&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.14v5.jpg

This one is on the bottom row, second from the left! http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ect_key=40436&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.9v5.jpg

So I will let those pictures speak for themselves!

I am beginning to learn one thing about the originals they are all similar, but different.
The differences vary from period, maker and location!

I do understand what folks are trying to say if you wish to make a copy of an "original Hawken". Then you must pick one rifle and stay with that rifle. The things that make the originals differ are specific to each rifle and mix and match doesn't work when trying to make a good copy!

This thread started out as myself trying to find some information about originals in order when I do the rebuild of my Traditions St. Louis Hawken to make it look more like and original. It was never my intention to try when finished to pass it off as a copy of an original!

However I love to talk about the original Hawkens and this thread has strayed some what. Although anytime real information about original Hawkens is passed on I do not consider it straying.

You see I am storing all that I can learn about the originals in hopes that before I leave this ole world I can do a build of one that is as close as you can get to an original. It is my intention to leave that one to my son!

 

[ButchG17]

If you think their web sight is good, you should see the collection in person. IT'S FANTASTIC!

If you are ever in Cody Wyoming you have to go there!

SC45-70

:thumbsup:

I was there in June after not having been there for more than few years. This rifle was on display....hope this isn't old news here.

 

[50cal.cliff]

It's been years since I have been to Cody, I was still wet behind the ears the last time I was out there. I didn't get to see the museum.

I keep saying I am going to take the wife out there and let her see what that country is all about! Love the country but the older I get the more I doubt I could handle the winters.

Thanks for the pictures! :thumbsup: