Questions about Civil War reproduction rifles

[mk434]

I am thinking about getting a Civil war repro. Enfield or Zuave rifle and have several questions about them.

1). I heard that the trigger pull on these rifle is very hard. Is it easy to fix it or does it require a gunsmith.
2). About what is the average load that people use with these rifles in FFG and FFFG.
3). Do they require a patch between the charge and ball or you just drop the minne ball on top of the charge??

I am very fuzzy in these areas and would appreciate some clarification if/when I purchase one. Thanks

 

[TFoley]

Hi there! Let's answer your question in the order they appear, eh?

The trigger of any reproduction arm is going to be harder than a target rifle, these were martial arms after all. But they do let off a bit after a fair amount of shooting. I would leave them alone as is, because there is no safety catch, and the only thing between you shooting and not shooting is a bent and sear designed in the 1830's.

Most people over here use between 55 and 65gr of Fg or FFg -nothing finer and therefore faster burning - you will have to discover the 'sweet' and accurate load for yourself. Heavier charges are not only not necessary, but will also tend to blow the bullet out leaving the ring of the base skirt behind - a real pain to try and remove.

You don't patch a Minie bullet - just lube it well into the grooves and fill the base. It should be a good fit down the bore with a smooth push, trialling a number of slightly different sizes for accuracy. Coming back up with the exploding charge behind it is what turns the bullet into its own patch, as the thinner skirt expands into the bore and seals it up.

Just a thort, but I strongly recommend you to go to one of the NSSA or NRA Black Powder shooting seminars, where you will pick up many useful hints to help you in your quest for knowledge, and join the NSSA anyway!

Best wishes

tac in UK

 

[Zonie]

The trigger pull varies depending on who make the rifle. Some folks are saying their trigger pull is in the 12 pound area, but I don't know if they actually measured it or that just sounded like a impressive number to describe a heavy pull.

Bare in mind, the military guns in real life often have heavy trigger pulls (IMO). I think it is intentionally done to keep anxious troops from accidently firing when in battle.

The common load for a Civil War musket was around 60 grains of FFg under a 400-600 grain Minie' bullet. While this load is close to the original loads, some modern shooters use hunting loads of up to 130 grains of powder.
The people doing this often find the Minie' bullets become very inacurate but I guess they think they need all of that power.
A 460 grain Minie with 130 grains of FFg powder has a muzzle velocity of about 1400 FPS and 2000+ ft/lbs of energy.
That's somewhat comparable with shooting a 20 guage shotgun with a Magnum 1 oz load in a brass butt plated gun.
The reason for the inaccuracy (IMO) is the Minie' bullets hollow base can blow out as the bullet leaves the muzzle.
If you want to shoot heavy loads, you might want to try the T/C Maxi Balls.
Both the Minie' and the Maxi-balls are loaded without a patch but both bullets requre grease like Bore Butter in their grease grooves.

Many people find that these guns often shoot .570 dia. patched roundballs more accuratlely than the Minie' and the recoil is a lot less.

If you choose to shoot the .570 roundball, use a .015 to .018 lubricated patch.

The weakest point of these guns for precision shooting for me is the sighting system.
These guns often have rather wide V grooves for a rear sight coupled with a very narrow front blade.

 

[mk434]

Would crisco be a good choice to lube the minne ball with? Also, is it fairly easy to push the minne ball into the barrel with your thumb or is a short starter required?

 

[musketman]

Would crisco be a good choice to lube the minne ball with? Also, is it fairly easy to push the minne ball into the barrel with your thumb or is a short starter required?

You would shoot low because Crisco is shortening... :crackup:

Don't use butter flavored Crisco, that will leave no margarine for error... :crackup:

Seriously though, the Lyman Black Powder Handbook list Crisco as the lube for all their minie-ball loads, it will work just fine... :blue: :grey:

As for the short starter, if you clean between shots, then no, if the barrel is a little dirty, you may need it...

It is better to have one and not need it, than it is to need one and not have it...

 

[Zonie]

Crisco? Sure. Any vegatable oil product will work fine (except, as Mooskeetman says, pre flavored/salted stuff.)

No, you don't have to use a starter. All you need is a ramrod.

That was the whole idea that caused the Minie' to become so widely accepted by the Military all over the world.

Up to the development of the Minie, the military only liked loose fitting round balls used in their muskets (smoothbore).
That was because during the battle, ease of loading was paramount, much more so than accuracy.
Tear the paper cartridge, dump the powder down the bore, drop the ball and the wad of paper in and ram it all down.

Rifles prior to the invention of the Minie' were slow to load and fouled quickly. They were used primarily by snipers.

When the Minie' was developed it was intentionally made undersize so it would load just like the round balls currently in use.
The key idea was a wooden plug in the hollow base which would expand the bullet into rifleing grooves when the gun was fired. It was later discovered (by an American I believe) that the wooden plug was not needed to make the bullet expand. It only needed the hollow base cavity.

 

[Gary]

Some trigger pull is in part due to the lock and how well made it is. Is the tumbler rubbing against the lock plate? Is the sear & tumbler relation correct? How about the sear and how it rests and moves? Another major factor is the location of the trigger pin in relation to the sear arm.

If you're into reenacting, then you pick your unit and then find out which gun the unit carried for a specific time of the war (guns were issued to be returned for replacement or sometimes replaced via battlefield pickup).

If you're into shooting & not reenacting, then you can pick any gun you like that has a good trigger and not worry about uniformity with respects to a reenactment group. Trigger quality becomes part of a factor in considering your gun (besides fit, finish, quality of parts, price).

BTW, I use only SPG lube. Using charges of 65 grains FF, I've fired 60 rounds from my Enfields and each minie dropping easily down the bore. This was at the public range near (the public dump) at Carson City, Nevada. I've never tried that in the SF Bay Area where the humidity is different.

 

[mk434]

thanks for all of your replies, it really cleared some things up for me. I plan on buying an Enfield soon.

 

[mk434]

I just remembered one more question, do you guys prefer to use pyrodex or blackpowder in these rifles. Is there one that is better than the other or is it just based on personal preferences??

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

thanks for all of your replies, it really cleared some things up for me. I plan on buying an Enfield soon.

I'm just curious as to which model Enfield--there are several variants.

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[mk434]

I'm thinking of getting either a 3-band armisport or Euroarms. Which one do you guys think is better?

 

[Zonie]

I just remembered one more question, do you guys prefer to use pyrodex or blackpowder in these rifles. Is there one that is better than the other or is it just based on personal preferences??

Yes. :crackup: :crackup:


Boy, does it irritate my wife when she asks a double question and that's my answer. :: ::

As for the questions, Yes, you can use Black Powder or Pyrodex RS. I wouldn't recommend Pyrodex P though.

The Black powder will give more consistant shooting with more fouling. By consistant, I mean the point of impact will be more consistant and the ignition will be instantanious.
If your shooting Minie' balls, they were made to load with the fouled barrel so that is only an issue if your shooting patched round balls.

Pyrodex RS will foul less than Black Powder, but the ignition isn't as consistant.
IMO, Pyrodex RS, fired in a .50 Rifled Musket, will fire better than it does in a regular caplock because of the extra "umph" the Musket Cap provides.
In a regular Caplock firing it with a #11 cap it sometimes has a slight delay after the cap fires. This delay can occur at any time. It's not something that happens just on the first shot.

 

[Gary]

I prefer blackpowder over the substitutes. Just being ole fashioned.

 

[flintlockmdj]

Mike contact me at [email protected] have a Zouave for sale.

 

[Liver eatin’ Johnson]

I have had both, and I prefer the ArmiSport because of the Oil finished stock and traditional barrel bands.

 

[sfruhwirth]

Hey mk434...

Glad to hear others finding muskets interesting.

I just purchased my first one 4 months back now and it shoots a house of fire! Mine is a 1863 2 band zouave, manufactured by Euro arms, and love how it shoots!

I've found that the trigger pulls do vary from gun to gun.
I had mine tested and came out at just over 4 pounds with quite a bit of trigger pull as well. If your interested in having someone lighten up an extra heavy trigger.. bear in mind what its use will be for. If i'm correct i think to qualify for an NMLRA sanctioned musket shoot your trigger pull has to be 3.5 pounds or greater.
Can anyone verify this? I know its right in that area though.

I use 70 grain goex ff. I found it to be the most accurate load for me especially for multi ranges... 25, 50, and 100 yard. :imo:

As far as patch... I only shoot the .570 rb. I use an .018 soaked pillow ticking patch that I cut at the range.
Not super familiar with the mini's but my buddy shoots them off and on. And basically just lubes up the ribs of mini and loads directly over powder.

 

[jdstrang]

Most of your questions have been largely answered, but something needs to be said about the minie and its fit relationship with its barrel.

The best spacing is to have a minie that's one-thousandth to two-thousandths smaller than the bore diameter. I've seen barrels on CW repros that range from .573 to .584 in actual gauged diameter, so the variance can be considerable.

The easiest way to determine the diameter is to measure the bore with a plug gauge that tells one just how big it is. Then, one obtains a $10 minie sizing die from any of several sources (S&S Arms in New York, Winchester Sutler in Winchester, Va., among them) that is the requisite few thousanths smaller than said bore. One pushes one's minies through said sizer, making them uniform in size and thus more consistant in function.

And it is EXTREMELY important that minies be cast from simon-pure, soft lead. I daresay most accuracy problems with CW repros and minies stem from the use of hardened lead, like wheelweights, window leading, etc. Hard lead, even just a little hard, won't expand right and you will not have anything that could be called "accuracy" in the commonly understood meaning of the word.

I don't know where you plan to get your minies, but the best bet would be to make them yourself. I recommend the Lyman old style 575213 mould. Others here like the Lee REAL, with which I have no personal experience but which has a good reputation as well. And NO PATCHES WITH A MINIE! They have that conical base and are made with soft lead so that they expand and obdurate to fill the rifling, which performs the gripping function that a patch performs in roundball shooting.

Soft lead and a good bore, manageable trigger and decent sights will give you excellent accuracy out of either rifle with a charge somewhere between 35 and 50 grains of 3fg.

Try it. You'll like it. :imo: :m2c: :blue: :grey: