Questions about filing sights and the math involved

[SomeDude]

I finally got the Traditions kit I ordered put together and shooting, and it's shooting very high. About 5" high at 10 yards, and 12" at 25 yards.

I found an old post here detailing the math where I can figure out how much I need to file off the rear sight... Traditions Kentucky shooting high

So according to the math in that post I need to take mine down about .106"-.110". Though I'm not so confident in how consistently I was shooting to base the POA/POI difference based on the groups I got, nor my measurements from muzzle to target. So I'm thinking I should take it down .100" and see how it shoots then.

I basically don't want to have to do too much trial and error, but also don't want to take too much off the rear sight and make it shoot low instead. So that conservative estimate is probably best right?

If I did file off too much and made it shoot low, wouldn't I be able to file down the front to bring it up? I have been using scopes so long I forget how open sights work... Isn't it forward-opposite-rear-same? So if I needed to bring the POI up, I could bring the front sight down. Right?

But I'm wondering how I'd use the same math used to figure out the rear sight and apply it to the front--trigonometry isn't my strong suit but I feel like it should be the same basic principle but a little different.

Anyway I tried to Google about this but I just couldn't figure out the right search terms I needed, so figure I'd ask here. Hopefully my questions make sense.

 

[deermanok]

I'd say not to do anything until you shoot at 50 yards and 100 yards.

 

[SomeDude]

I'd say not to do anything until you shoot at 50 yards and 100 yards.

Oh I think I forgot to mention that this is the Kentucky pistol, not the rifle. Not sure if that makes a difference on your recommendation.

 

[andy52]

Most reproduction pistols come with sights that are totally inappropriate for shooting in my opinion. Most are way too tall, the Pedersoli Kentucky pistol I just bought was much the same and I replace both front and rear sights.

 

[SDSmlf]

I would leave the sights alone until I decided on a load and a distance I wanted to be right on. As far as math to calculate, it’s not really trigonometry, just simple ratio of the distance between the sights and the distance from the gun to the target. As an example, if your gun has a sight radius (distance between the front and rear sights) of 10” you would have to lower the rear sight ~.14” to .13” (10 and 50 target info you provided) or raise the front sight that amount to lower the POI 5” at 10 yards and/or 12” at 25 yards.

Question for you. If you are ready to start adjusting the sights, what is the accuracy load (ball, patch and powder) and distance you are adjusting the sights for?

 

[deermanok]

Oh I think I forgot to mention that this is the Kentucky pistol, not the rifle. Not sure if that makes a difference on your recommendation.

I just assumed it was a rifle.
My own Kentucky pistol is dead on at 25 yards. I have shot it out to 50 yards. I can hit the target but that's about it.
Are you shooting off a bench or off hand?
You can file down the rear sight notch a bit. Maybe 1/16 of an inch. Take a few shots, repeat until you get where you want to be with the pistol.

 

[SomeDude]

Question for you. If you are ready to start adjusting the sights, what is the accuracy load (ball, patch and powder) and distance you are adjusting the sights for?

I haven't tried any other combination than a 180 grain round ball, .015" patch and 45 grains of 2f Pyrodex. I know 3f is recommended for this pistol, but I couldn't find anything but 2f. I tried some 30 grain charges too but didn't notice any accuracy difference.

I shot about 1.5" group at 10 yards and about 4" at 25--but the 25 yard group was with quite a lot of hold-under so I didn't have a good bulls-eye to focus on. I might be able to do better with more practice, as shooting a pistol like this one handed is brand new to me.

I don't really see myself shooting much beyond 25 yards very often. I figure if I want to shoot the odd target at 50 yards or more, I could use hold-over.

But right now with it being as high as it is, it's kind of frustrating trying to apply the right hold-under at 25 yards.

I just assumed it was a rifle.
My own Kentucky pistol is dead on at 25 yards. I have shot it out to 50 yards. I can hit the target but that's about it.
Are you shooting off a bench or off hand?
You can file down the rear sight notch a bit. Maybe 1/16 of an inch. Take a few shots, repeat until you get where you want to be with the pistol.

Heh okay, I thought so, I don't think I could be very accurate with it at 50 or more, my eyesight isn't great.

I have been shooting it one-handed and standing sideways to the target. That seemed to be the classic stance for this type of pistol.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Always start removing a small amount. Then taking more off as needed. "putting on files" are hard to find.

 

[SDSmlf]

I don't really see myself shooting much beyond 25 yards very often. I figure if I want to shoot the odd target at 50 yards or more, I could use hold-over.

But right now with it being as high as it is, it's kind of frustrating trying to apply the right hold-under at 25 yards.

A temporary practice/group development tactic is to place another target above the target in your sight picture, or even just plain clean paper so you can understand your progression with group size. At this point hitting the bullseye of the target isn’t important, it all about group size, then adjusting the sights so they line up with where that group is centered. Kind of like shooting an arrow into something, then drawing the target around the arrow.

Couple of other things to maybe consider. Get yourself a taller front sight. Might be easier that taking an eight inch off the rear sight you can’t put back. Never hurts to have extra sights of different heights in your toolbox’ of tricks. And as far as adjusting the height of the rear (or front), I like to mark them with Dykem (you could use Sharpie or magic marker) and scribe a few lines with at least one at my anticipated final height so I can easily sneak up on it with my file.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

WAIT...,

THERE IS MATH INVOLVED?

LD

 

[SomeDude]

A temporary practice/group development tactic is to place another target above the target in your sight picture, or even just plain clean paper so you can understand your progression with group size. At this point hitting the bullseye of the target isn’t important, it all about group size, then adjusting the sights so they line up with where that group is centered. Kind of like shooting an arrow into something, then drawing the target around the arrow.

Couple of other things to maybe consider. Get yourself a taller front sight. Might be easier that taking an eight inch off the rear sight you can’t put back. Never hurts to have extra sights of different heights in your toolbox’ of tricks. And as far as adjusting the height of the rear (or front), I like to mark them with Dykem (you could use Sharpie or magic marker) and scribe a few lines with at least one at my anticipated final height so I can easily sneak up on it with my file.

Yep that's essentially how I shot the group at 25 yards. I had a shipping box that the gun came in and drew a bull in the middle, but shooting at that, the bullets were just skimming over the top (I can actually see where they grazed the cardboard). So I aimed at where the center of the box met the ground to get that group. For the 10 yard target, I was able to aim at the actual bull and it wouldn't go over the top. However what got frustrating was that I couldn't even hit a 1 liter bottle at 25 yards because I couldn't estimate the hold-under well enough--though I don't remember if I tried to shoot the bottle before or after figuring out how high it was.

Getting a taller front sight is an interesting idea I hadn't thought about. Trouble is, I did kind of a dumb thing and used red loctite on the dovetails to keep the sights from being able to slide in and out. I didn't realize that I could also just peen the dove-tails tighter before I did this. So in order to remove the sights now I'd have to heat them up, and I'm worried about screwing up the temper on the barrel by doing that. I'm lucky the windage was dead on with them aligned to the center of the barrel.

My plan is to measure the depth of the notch that's currently there, and add .100" to that, and scribe a line that far down from the top of the sight. Then I'll scribe another line above that at .100". I'll use a rotary cutoff wheel on my dremel to plunge-cut the notch down to the first scribe line, and then remove material on either end of the notch down to the second scribe line. That way I won't risk throwing the windage off by having to cut in a totally new notch, and will keep it the same depth it is now. It's a lot of material to remove, but I think I can cut off quite a lot with the cutoff wheel to make the rest easily managed with a bastard file.

 

[rich pierce]

 

[deermanok]

I guess that if you ever had to remove your sights, you could heat up a screwdriver or something to transfer the heat to the sights instead of applying heat directly to the barrel.

 

[Artificer]

I finally got the Traditions kit I ordered put together and shooting, and it's shooting very high. About 5" high at 10 yards, and 12" at 25 yards.

I found an old post here detailing the math where I can figure out how much I need to file off the rear sight... Traditions Kentucky shooting high

So according to the math in that post I need to take mine down about .106"-.110". Though I'm not so confident in how consistently I was shooting to base the POA/POI difference based on the groups I got, nor my measurements from muzzle to target. So I'm thinking I should take it down .100" and see how it shoots then.

I basically don't want to have to do too much trial and error, but also don't want to take too much off the rear sight and make it shoot low instead. So that conservative estimate is probably best right?

If I did file off too much and made it shoot low, wouldn't I be able to file down the front to bring it up? I have been using scopes so long I forget how open sights work... Isn't it forward-opposite-rear-same? So if I needed to bring the POI up, I could bring the front sight down. Right?

But I'm wondering how I'd use the same math used to figure out the rear sight and apply it to the front--trigonometry isn't my strong suit but I feel like it should be the same basic principle but a little different.

Anyway I tried to Google about this but I just couldn't figure out the right search terms I needed, so figure I'd ask here. Hopefully my questions make sense.

Do you need a tip on keeping the top of the front sight at a slightly downward angle and "Square" or perpendicular to the sight blade?

Gus

 

[SomeDude]

Do you need a tip on keeping the top of the front sight at a slightly downward angle and "Square" or perpendicular to the sight blade?

Gus

Hmm maybe because I'm not quite sure what you mean

 

[Artificer]

Hmm maybe because I'm not quite sure what you mean

OK, it is not easy to file the top of the front sight either of the two ways you should do it, if you don't have a fair amount of experience and even if you do, this might still help you.

The first important thing in filing the top of a front sight is you want a slight downward angle from rear downward to the front. This so you don't get a reflection off the top of the sight when the sun is shining, that makes the front sight even more hazy than normal.

The second important thing is to keep the rear top edge of the front sight level with the rear sight. This is most important when the rear sight notch is U shaped and you want to keep both sights in the same visual level plain so you don't inadvertently cant or turn the Pistol crooked as you fire it.

If this doesn't seem clear. Please ask.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

For a reference image, please see the sight picture below:

Notice how in the middle or "Right On" image, the top of the front sight is level with the top of the rear sight?

Gus

 

[SomeDude]

OK, it is not easy to file the top of the front sight either of the two ways you should do it, if you don't have a fair amount of experience and even if you do, this might still help you.

The first important thing in filing the top of a front sight is you want a slight downward angle from rear downward to the front. This so you don't get a reflection off the top of the sight when the sun is shining, that makes the front sight even more hazy than normal.

The second important thing is to keep the rear top edge of the front sight level with the rear sight. This is most important when the rear sight notch is U shaped and you want to keep both sights in the same visual level plain so you don't inadvertently cant or turn the Pistol crooked as you fire it.

If this doesn't seem clear. Please ask.

Gus

Oh okay, I got it. I was thinking you were talking about holding the front sight at a different angle while shooting.

 

[Artificer]

Here is an reference image for the angle of the top of the front sight. Notice how the top of the sight angles downward slightly to the left, which is the front of the front sight?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Oh okay, I got it. I was thinking you were talking about holding the front sight at a different angle while shooting.

Would you like a tip to make it easier to file the top of the front sight that way?

Gus