Questions about original Hawken Halfstocks

[jimairwin]

Wow, some deep information!

You know what catches my eye about these rifles. The top one is property of the MT Historical society.

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Meek posted these two as. A couple of rifles assembled from Hawken Shop Hawken kits (from the Art Ressel period).
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This is the Jim Bridger from the Montana.Gov site. The barrel is pictured in the photo below that, from the same gun! View attachment 85791View attachment 85792

The one thing that catches my eye is that they all have steel furniture! The next thing that jumps out at me it the end of the stock at the ramrod. The shape and length of the step in the top one and the S Hawken from St. Louis at the ramrod entry to the stock!

The two posted from Meek representative (from the Art Ressel period). The forend of the stock at the ramrod entry is unique in the way they sweep up! Another thing that jumps out at me is they all have two wedge keys!

I think I will purchase the book on Hawken's from the NMLRA! I mean I have blown that amount of money before. However I don't feel this would be money blown, this clearly would be an investment!!

Clearly I need to do some more research!! Thanks for the information guys. I am leaning towards something like the Jim Bridger Hawken at this time! The Kit Carson and the Jim Bridger appear to be quite similar! Can anyone share with any differences in the two??

My first Hawken was a kit of parts from Cherry Corners with book and blueprint of Kit Carson's Hawken. Later made one from the Hawken Shoppe (Art Ressel) kit said to replicate the Jim Bridger Hawken. Both are 54 cal. The Carson is a little lighter. Carson was a small-ish man; while Bridger was a large man.

The Carson has a straight Douglass barrel, the Bridger a tapered Wm Large barrel. I love them both and can shoot them very well.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

Look at as many examples of original rifles and historical images as possible and then build what you like with the features/furniture that you want. It's your rifle.

 

[Herb]

Art- the photo of the J&S Hawken cheek piece is one I took at Helena on 9/9/2013. Phil Meek's info is accurate. I personally measured the Bridger Hawken at Helena and have the measurements taken at the GRRW in 1975 when they had the rifle for about three years. I handled it in 1978, though I didn't know then what I was looking at. Phil and my friend Bob measured the Carson rifle in December 2019, but a snowstorm kept me away. I plan to fly to Sante Fe with Bob next month to take some detailed photos of the Carson rifle and more measurements.

The rifles are near twins, with the Bridger having a longer and heavier barrel. The big difference is in the butt plate shape and pitch at the muzzle. The toe of the Bridger buttplate is kicked ahead about 1/8 inch. That results in the muzzle being pitched down 6 3/8" when the butt sits flat on the floor with the tang hump against a vertical line. Or you can measure and calculate that from the full length Bridger photo shown above. The toe plate and butt plate are riveted together. I don't know if Bridger accidentally broke the toe and repaired it (as I have done while elk hunting and falling on a rock with my fullstock flint Hawken) or modified Sam Hawken's work to suit himself. (He had apprenticed as a blacksmith and had skill to do this). The Kit Carson rifle has about 2 13/16" pitch at the muzzle, though the two-inch shorter barrel made some difference.

The Bridger weighs 11 1/4 pounds and the Carson 10 1/2 pounds. The Carson has a low rear sight, resulting in a low front sight. Bridger's rear sight is higher, but the front sight is broken off at the rear. I don't know how that could happen accidentally, maybe he broke it off to raise the point of impact. Both lock plates are five inches long, whereas the Davis lock we have now is 4.85" long, as is the "Robidoux"-drawn Hawken in Lincoln, NE. The Bridger slims the lock panels across the rear by bending the lock plate in behind the snail. I don't know how the Carson was done, but Phil had an observation about the left lock panel, maybe he'll comment.

I have photos of all these details, should someone doubt what I say. The picture of me in the red shirt, I am holding the Bridger rifle.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Herb, it is great to see you post on this thread. Years ago, I discussed this very subject with you in detail! At the time I was going to do a rebuild of the Traditions, St. Louis Hawken I had. That was before the stock got broken and I discovered blowback around the breech plug. This build I am proposing now will be different. I am wanting to do this one as a scratch build!

Well I ordered my own copy of "The Hawken Rifle - Its Evolution from 1822-1870" from the NMLRA site. So now I have to sit back and wait. So when I finally get started on this project I will try and do it as a WIP and look for advice from the great minds on this forum!!

 

[Mike Thompson]

I purchased the new Hawken book and have learned quite a lot. What I found really interesting was the Gemmer Hawken “transition” rifle. Trapdoor dropped into a Hawken, for lack of a better description. Then this month an article in the NMLRA concerning the same rifle. Somewhere down the road I would love to have one.
MT