Questions about shot loads

[Old Hawkeye]

Wad column is paramount to keeping the shot cloud together. What you don't need is a thick wad column tumbling around mixed in w/the shot cloud. This scatters the shot and makes a hole in the pattern. Thin wads , like one .125 , or thinner 1/8 " do their job and drop out of the shot cloud more quickly , thus less likely to cause a hole. Spent a lot of range time to understand this. My previous expertise was with modern cartridge shot shells. Starting from that knowledge , and loading and shooting thousands of rounds of modern , I tried all there was as far as wad science that worked in modern shells and powders. Black powder pressures develop more slowly than smokeless powder pressures . With that in mind , there is a balance needing to be struck between not using less powder and shot , so the pattern is perfect , or using less wad density and equal shot and powder by volume, so killing power is maximized , and pattern is w/o holes. One other item I came across is use one shot size larger w/ black powder , than recommended for modern shot shell science. Hope this info helps....oldwood

.125" & 1/8" are the same. Do you mean the thinner overshot cards??

 

[Kev308]

Well I had a chance today to try again, trying 70 and 75 gr 3f and Skychiefs loading pattern, I kept getting holes in the pattern right where I was aiming. I was shooting at a good 20 paces from the target. It seemed no matter what I did the holes were there. I used #5 and #6 shot. I also stuck with the 3f because I use it for pretty much everything. Yes I am a bit stubborn!
finally I decided to eliminate the greased wad. I loaded 75 3f and took one of those 1/8th inch thick cards and split it. One half over the powder amd one half over the shot. That appeared to solve the problem, the holes were gone and as you can see from the crappy cell phone photo, the pattern was not too bad.
I’m not done with this, I want to see if I can improve it. Which of course means more time shooting my smoothbore and well that’s just fun.

 

[George]

I don't have pictures of Rupert shot, I've never made it. It apparently usually has a small dimple in each pellet when made correctly. It is made by dropping melted lead into water, and if not done correctly winds up teardrop shaped with that little tail. It was first described by Prince Rupert of England in 1665. Swan shot is a plain round shot, like buckshot only smaller, made in a mold like any other ball. It was called swan shot because it was the proper size for shooting swans. In the day that was common, so they advertised swan, goose, high duck, low duck, pigeon, dove, squirrel, bird and of course buck shot.

I don't know when reenactors began calling the shot with tails swan shot, but I imagine it was because the little tails sometimes have curves like a swan's neck. When I first got into the hobby I bought some Rupert shot with tails which was being sold as swan shot by a vendor at some meet. I shot it, it worked reasonably well.

Spence

 

[oldwood]

Rupert shot is a product of a shot tower. Was it made in error?? .............oldwood

 

[George]

Rupert shot is a product of a shot tower. Was it made in error?? .............oldwood

Rupert shot was made from 1665, the first shot tower was patented by Watts in England in 1782. Shot towers are very tall, allowing the shot to fall up to 200 feet, while Rupert shot is made by falling only a few inches.

Spence

 

[JeffG]

Wrap your shot in butcher paper, Tear off front string to ram over a cushion wad. Light card was over shot. A little more shot than powder ratio, should clear up holes in the pattern.

 

[oldwood]

Thanks Spence. From what I've read , anyone on the 18th century frontier used swan shot if they could get it. Turkeys were so plentiful , they were on the menu frequently. Bet they used swan shot to gather them.....oldwood

 

[Zonie]

Rupert shot was made from 1665, the first shot tower was patented by Watts in England in 1782. Shot towers are very tall, allowing the shot to fall up to 200 feet, while Rupert shot is made by falling only a few inches.

Spence

I might add, Rupert shot is usually somewhat elliptical in shape while the shot that is made in Shot Towers is spherical. In the long fall to the water, the lead will form itself into a sphere. Sometimes arsenic is added to the lead to help this sphere shape form.

The original Rupert shot was made by dropping molten lead thru a brass pan with many small round holes in the bottom. This pan was held a few inches above the water in a pan below it.

I think pouring the molten lead thru a screen held several feet above the water results in the elongated shot that often has a tail on it.

 

[megasupermagnum]

I never tried 3Fg in a shotgun, but have tried both 2Fg and 1Fg. By far 1Fg provides the best patterns, and that is what I recommend you try.

 

[George]

Thanks Spence. From what I've read , anyone on the 18th century frontier used swan shot if they could get it. Turkeys were so plentiful , they were on the menu frequently. Bet they used swan shot to gather them.....oldwood

We might be surprised what the old boys did on the frontier. I have a couple of references that indicate smoothbore guns were not favored by the frontiersmen/backwoodsmen.

_General George Hanger to all Sportsmen, Farmers, and Gamekeepers_, 1814, speaking of his military service in this country during the revolution:
"The wild turkey is shot with a rifle; nay, even birds and squirrels, from the very top of the loftiest trees in the woods. No small-shot gun, during my residence of seven years of war in America, was ever kept in the house of a back-woodsman."

William Blane, _An Excursion through the United States and Canada, during the Years 1822-3 by an English Gentleman_ He had previously described how the locals killed their grouse by shooting their heads off with a rifle.
"I have seen at one time, several hundred of Prairie fowls in a flock. They would afford excellent sport to any one who could procure a smooth-bored gun---- an article, which, unless brought to Albion by the English settlers, is unknown throughout the whole of Illinois. If a person with this sort of gun were an adept in shooting flying, he might easily kill a hundred birds, or even more, in a day. But shooting flying is an art wholly unknown to the Backwoodsman."

Spence

 

[Stumpkiller]

I had the same problem with SkyChief's load and I figure it was because of how I am lubing the wad. He recommends absolutely soaking the wad in oil. I don't; because I feel that added weight reduces energy available to the shot. Just me (and how I like to carry waxed wads that are less leach-likely). I played around with patterning using more conventional wads & cards and added a brown-paper shot cup to get me where I needed.

 

[MountainSmoke]

Well I had a chance today to try again, trying 70 and 75 gr 3f and Skychiefs loading pattern, I kept getting holes in the pattern right where I was aiming. I was shooting at a good 20 paces from the target. It seemed no matter what I did the holes were there. I used #5 and #6 shot. I also stuck with the 3f because I use it for pretty much everything. Yes I am a bit stubborn!
finally I decided to eliminate the greased wad. I loaded 75 3f and took one of those 1/8th inch thick cards and split it. One half over the powder amd one half over the shot. That appeared to solve the problem, the holes were gone and as you can see from the crappy cell phone photo, the pattern was not too bad.
I’m not done with this, I want to see if I can improve it. Which of course means more time shooting my smoothbore and well that’s just fun.View attachment 45373

I would be happy with that pattern at 20 yards if it were mine. Half the fun with smoothies is all of the experimenting you get to do to find what your gun likes and doesn't. Looks like your on the right track.

 

[BJm]

I haven't shot much game with either my 11g or 12g but use the same loads for both & have won many 25 clay matches at club,State & International shoots. I use eaqual powder/shot by dipper. 1 1/8 3f, 1/8'' over powder card, 1/2'' dry fibre wad cut in halves ( a full wad punches a hole in the pattern ) , a 1/16'' card ( pizza box )on top of the wad & 1 1/8 of #7 1/2 shot, 1 1/16'' card on top. I use the same loads fr black powder cartriges minus the card on top of the shot as the case is star crimped. If it is really windy i use 1 1/4 by measure powder & shot

 

[Daryl Crawford]

Daryl.........Just concerned ??? ............you said 80 grains of shot , or did you mean an 80 grain DIPPER by volume of shot ???? Huge difference in meaning of things which might confuse some folks new to the discussion???.........oldwood

Sorry, should have been clearer so as not to confuse anyone. I'm using volume measures.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I'd use leaves before I would ever load a fibre wad before the shot! Learnt that doesn't work years ago.

 

[Troyfairweather]

I'd use leaves before I would ever load a fibre was before the shot! Learnt that doesn't work years ago.

so what do you use, powder, over powder wad, shot, over shot card?

 

[Britsmoothy]

so what do you use, powder, over powder wad, shot, over shot card?

Mostly, four OS cards, sometimes with a blob of lube in them. Shot then a card or a dripping wet fibre wad on the shot. No doughnut patterns then.

 

[Yewbender]

Lil tought to see but...the Skycheif loading method...thanks to Skycheif!!! I use 70gr 2F, nitro card, 1 1/2oz #6 magnum lead shot, over shot card, and top it off with a very soaked 1/2 inch fiber wad with Big Desert patch lube. This is my turkey load patterned at 20ish yards.

If all else drop the charge of 3f since it with give off higher pressures which could be the cause of you problem. Also try 2f since it had less pressure.

 

[Hawk78]

I tried cutting the powder charge back today, I didnt have time to really work it like I had hoped to. That will be another day. I used 65 gr 3f and the pattern shot lower on the board, it was better but a fair amount of shot failed to penetrate the board! We use homasote backers on our target boards amd the pellets were right on the surface!
I plan to get out this week and work on this in more depth. I’ll post my results when that happens
Thanks, everyone for your help!
Kevin

I'm interested in your shooting board. I have not a clue what homasote backers are? Can you elaborate sir?

 

[RP3543]

If you're looking for a tighter pattern, try the "Stumpkiller Shotcups"
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/20-ga-shot-loads.99993/post-1309898That's what I use for my Turkey loads...reduces the pattern diameter at 25 yards by 15-20%.