A few grains of 4f as mentioned will work well and not harm anything there is enough room at thecurvature of the ball to hold the powder as the vent is usually at the face of the plug and damage by this method is likley the result of not hearing the whole story, like the ball half way down and a bunch of powder used, I cannot count the times I have seen the trickle prime method used over the years.
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Ramming Ball Without Powder
- Thread starter dcriner
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I'm having some trouble getting my head around that concept, Zonie. I don't know of any way for exploding powder to create a sonic wave except by the rapid expansion of the gasses created. Those gasses are traveling well in excess of the speed of sound, I would think, so it seems unlikely the sound would reach the ball before the expanding gasses and the wave of pressure, especially within such a short distance. What am I missing?Zonie said:
Spence
hanshi
Cannon
The vent liners in my flinters have 1/16" holes and I've never had a problem getting enough 4F in to push the ball out. I don't dryball, understand, but sometimes one of those rascals make their way in there before the powder does - haven't figured out how it happens. It only takes a minute or less to prick in 4 to 6 grains and my rifles have flat breeches. Funny, but they come out the barrel with a sort of "squirt" sound and normally don't make it to the 25 yard line.
I had read of this phenomenon years ago, I believe in a "Rifleman" magazine article which was trying to explain why some fairly light weight obstruction like a little snow could cause a rifle to explode.
Apparently, I'm not alone in this belief.
In a Topic on the Civil War Reenactors Forum where they were discussing a India made Bess exploding a guy called tompritchett said,
"I have hesitated to comment on this thread because it is readily apparent that we do not have the whole story. However, I would like to comment how a blockage could easily cause such a rupture, especially if the blockage was somewhere up the barrel from the powder. When the pressure wave from the exploding black powder hits a blockage somewhere up the barrel from the point of ignition, it bounces back with much or all of its intensity back to the breech plug, then back towards the blockage again, then back towards the blockage and so on until the blockage is totally cleared (the degree that the full intensity of the wave is reflected back is determined by degree that the blockage is either moved by the initial pressure wave or by how much of the wave can escape around the blockage).. Through a process known as constructive interference these pressure waves can reinforce each other as they pass creating at different locations in essence a series of "rogue" waves which can momentarily have a pressure several times greater than the original pressure created by the ignition of the gun powder. It is this rogue wave that then causes the barrel to burst."
This was followed by comments by a Curt-Heinrich Schmidt who wrote,
"In my experience, I haver seen, or heard of a barrel bursting without "blockage." Force generally takes the path of least resistance- that being exiting out the muzzle. However, "force" in the form of pressure and pressure waves can build up and exert pressure in other directions other than the muzzle. (And a caplock's cone flash channel or flintlock's touch-hole is not sufficient to vent or relieve rapidly building pressures...)
Sometimes, the pressure builds at right angles to the obstruction, and creates a visible "ring" behind where the obstruction was. There is a cannon tube in the Gettysburg NPS visitors' center that suffered such a burst."
Now, maybe we are wrong about this however I do know that sonic pressure waves exist and they can be quite useful.
Take the "tuned exhaust" often used on racing engines for instance. On 2 cycle machines these are often referred to as Expansion chambers.
When the exhaust valve/port opens the high pressure gas starting to emerge into the pipe creates a high pressure wave that travels the length of the exhaust pipe at sonic speeds.
When it reaches the end of the pipe a negative (vacuum) pressure wave or almost matching the strength of the high pressure wave is created. This negative pressure wave travels back up the exhaust pipe at a sonic speed and if it reaches the still open exhaust valve and passes into the combustion chamber while the intake valve is opening it will draw fresh fuel/air into the chamber. It in effect becomes a supercharger and the added power is often referred to as "coming on the pipe".
OK. OK. Enough about engines and back to ramming the ball without powder.
Apparently, I'm not alone in this belief.
In a Topic on the Civil War Reenactors Forum where they were discussing a India made Bess exploding a guy called tompritchett said,
"I have hesitated to comment on this thread because it is readily apparent that we do not have the whole story. However, I would like to comment how a blockage could easily cause such a rupture, especially if the blockage was somewhere up the barrel from the powder. When the pressure wave from the exploding black powder hits a blockage somewhere up the barrel from the point of ignition, it bounces back with much or all of its intensity back to the breech plug, then back towards the blockage again, then back towards the blockage and so on until the blockage is totally cleared (the degree that the full intensity of the wave is reflected back is determined by degree that the blockage is either moved by the initial pressure wave or by how much of the wave can escape around the blockage).. Through a process known as constructive interference these pressure waves can reinforce each other as they pass creating at different locations in essence a series of "rogue" waves which can momentarily have a pressure several times greater than the original pressure created by the ignition of the gun powder. It is this rogue wave that then causes the barrel to burst."
This was followed by comments by a Curt-Heinrich Schmidt who wrote,
"In my experience, I haver seen, or heard of a barrel bursting without "blockage." Force generally takes the path of least resistance- that being exiting out the muzzle. However, "force" in the form of pressure and pressure waves can build up and exert pressure in other directions other than the muzzle. (And a caplock's cone flash channel or flintlock's touch-hole is not sufficient to vent or relieve rapidly building pressures...)
Sometimes, the pressure builds at right angles to the obstruction, and creates a visible "ring" behind where the obstruction was. There is a cannon tube in the Gettysburg NPS visitors' center that suffered such a burst."
Now, maybe we are wrong about this however I do know that sonic pressure waves exist and they can be quite useful.
Take the "tuned exhaust" often used on racing engines for instance. On 2 cycle machines these are often referred to as Expansion chambers.
When the exhaust valve/port opens the high pressure gas starting to emerge into the pipe creates a high pressure wave that travels the length of the exhaust pipe at sonic speeds.
When it reaches the end of the pipe a negative (vacuum) pressure wave or almost matching the strength of the high pressure wave is created. This negative pressure wave travels back up the exhaust pipe at a sonic speed and if it reaches the still open exhaust valve and passes into the combustion chamber while the intake valve is opening it will draw fresh fuel/air into the chamber. It in effect becomes a supercharger and the added power is often referred to as "coming on the pipe".
OK. OK. Enough about engines and back to ramming the ball without powder.
I think there may be some additional explanations. First, the muzzle of a shotgun, with snow in the barrel can peel like a banana. (Ask me how I know.)
When the gasses normally expand, the pressure probably increases as the gasses continue to burn, right? With a bullet lodged halfway down the barrel, the pressure could be very high by the time they meet the bullet.
I don't know if it's supersonic or not, but an explosive charge will cause a shock wave. When it hits the bullet halfway down the barrel, I can visualize reflections that amplify the force.
Doug
When I first got into black powder rifles, I dry-balled almost every time I went to the rifle range, so I got plenty of "experience" in different methods to deal with "dry-balls".
A wise long-time BP shooter showed me his method to use the threaded dry-ball remover with no pain or suffering... even in a very dirty bore.
My range rod has a "T" handle, so after he screwed the dry-ball remover into the lead ball in the barrel, he took the "T" and put it in the "V" of a tree, then turned the whole rifle so the "T" was locked behind the "V" in the tree.
Then... he merely "walked" away from the tree holding the rifle and ramrod level... and the ball came out of the barrel quite easily without any hard pulling or jerking.
My "problem" was that around the rifle range at which I shoot, there are NO TREES, so I gave in and bought one of those CO² "guns" that is used to BLOW (with CO²) the stuck ball out of the barrel together with the attachment made for use with a flintlock... and, gentlemen... it works PERFECTLY and very quickly as well!~!~!
Just press the CO² gun's nozzle against the flash-hole and pull the little trigger on the CO² gun... and DA-DAH... the ball flies outta the barrel! :thumbsup:
Generally, I can "blow out" 4 or 5 stuck balls with one CO² cartridge before the gas runs out.
Unfortunately, once you pierce the CO² cartridge by putting it into the CO² gun, the gas will SLOWLY leak out over a month or two even if the CO² gun isn't used.
So buy the "insurance" (a CO² gun), they usually cost about $20 or so, but if you're on a woods walk, you can use the old "screw" method if you're got a big enough handle on your ramrod 'cause there's plenty of V-shaped forks in the trees along the walk... a "win/win" situation!
BTW, the CO² "gun" is easily small enough to simply carry it in your shirt pocket... and with it, you can easily and QUICKLY remove a "dry-ball" if necessary. It takes about 3 seconds... start to finish.
Strength & Honor...
Ron T. (the good-looking "Ron T.") :haha: ( :bull: )
A wise long-time BP shooter showed me his method to use the threaded dry-ball remover with no pain or suffering... even in a very dirty bore.
My range rod has a "T" handle, so after he screwed the dry-ball remover into the lead ball in the barrel, he took the "T" and put it in the "V" of a tree, then turned the whole rifle so the "T" was locked behind the "V" in the tree.
Then... he merely "walked" away from the tree holding the rifle and ramrod level... and the ball came out of the barrel quite easily without any hard pulling or jerking.
My "problem" was that around the rifle range at which I shoot, there are NO TREES, so I gave in and bought one of those CO² "guns" that is used to BLOW (with CO²) the stuck ball out of the barrel together with the attachment made for use with a flintlock... and, gentlemen... it works PERFECTLY and very quickly as well!~!~!
Just press the CO² gun's nozzle against the flash-hole and pull the little trigger on the CO² gun... and DA-DAH... the ball flies outta the barrel! :thumbsup:
Generally, I can "blow out" 4 or 5 stuck balls with one CO² cartridge before the gas runs out.
Unfortunately, once you pierce the CO² cartridge by putting it into the CO² gun, the gas will SLOWLY leak out over a month or two even if the CO² gun isn't used.
So buy the "insurance" (a CO² gun), they usually cost about $20 or so, but if you're on a woods walk, you can use the old "screw" method if you're got a big enough handle on your ramrod 'cause there's plenty of V-shaped forks in the trees along the walk... a "win/win" situation!
BTW, the CO² "gun" is easily small enough to simply carry it in your shirt pocket... and with it, you can easily and QUICKLY remove a "dry-ball" if necessary. It takes about 3 seconds... start to finish.
Strength & Honor...
Ron T. (the good-looking "Ron T.") :haha: ( :bull: )
For forty years I have found the triclkle prime method to work everytime, and much more satisfying than reverting to modern ramrod styles or gas operated devices, other peoples abilities may vary.most original rods would not have accomadated a screw and either shooting the ball or removing the breech plug were the main options todays plugs are not so easily removed.
Dry balling is not that rare. But how about leaving the ramrod in the barrel and then shooting it toward the target? There's a range event that will attract attention!
40 years ago, or so, I visited the museum at Gettysburg, PA civil war battlefield. They had a recomvered rifle on display with an X-ray of the barrel. There were six or more bullets, one on top of the other, all rammed into the barrel. I seem to recall that the official Park Service explanation was that the nervous soldier must have initially had a misfire, and then kept loading more rounds. (I'd think that a cap's firing without the main charge going off would be obvious, but then I've not been in battle. But whatever.)
An alternative explanation is that the first round was dry balled - but the results would be the same. It should be simple enough to determine how many, if any, of the loads were dry balled, just from the X-ray. Has anyone seen this display at Gettysburg?
Doug
40 years ago, or so, I visited the museum at Gettysburg, PA civil war battlefield. They had a recomvered rifle on display with an X-ray of the barrel. There were six or more bullets, one on top of the other, all rammed into the barrel. I seem to recall that the official Park Service explanation was that the nervous soldier must have initially had a misfire, and then kept loading more rounds. (I'd think that a cap's firing without the main charge going off would be obvious, but then I've not been in battle. But whatever.)
An alternative explanation is that the first round was dry balled - but the results would be the same. It should be simple enough to determine how many, if any, of the loads were dry balled, just from the X-ray. Has anyone seen this display at Gettysburg?
Doug
Forrest Mowbray
32 Cal.
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dcriner said:
Been there and have done that, its a real eye opener!
Forrest
If major pulling power is needed but no rafters or tree-forks are available, here's a simple solution:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/allen-arrow-puller.aspx?a=277153
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/allen-arrow-puller.aspx?a=277153
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Like somebody already posted above, once you've seen (or experienced) everything, there's more. My thinking is that blackpowder shooters tend to be a slight bit lacking in safety, myself included.forrestjr said:
I once conducted a muzzleloading session for Boy Scouts. We were shooting a percussion, single-shot pistol. I preached safety, keeping the pistol pointed downrange, even if there was a misfire. Sure enough, a boy had a misfire, and whirled around, pointing the pistol uprange - everybody, including me, hit the deck.
The mistake was mine. I should have had my two hands on the boy's shoulders.
Doug
shootrj2003
36 Cal.
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I don't know about the sonic boom thing- maybe it is or maybe it ain't -I don't know, it would be an interesting theory for a scientist or for "MythBuster's" to prove,but, It has been known among reloaders , muzzleloader enthusiast's and above ALL, gunsmith's , that air space between the charge and the projectile and/or obstructions in the barrel[which works out to the same thing] is not a good thing , gets worse with the amount of space and can result in ringed,bulged and blown barrels and frequently injured shooters.
whether it is a moving projectile that encounters a object in the barrel or a high pressure expanding ball of gas from just the propellent that encounters the projectile the effect is still the same,once either is moving with any velocity ,one does not ,or should not do anything to try and slow it down or delay it's departure in any way until it leaves the confines of the barrel,if you do it will seek other ways out of the barrel.If the projectile or obstruction is encountered before pressure has risen substantially then it might move with little or no damage to said barrel,the closer it is to the source of pressure the greater the chance of it moving without slowing down the expanding gasses.
whether it is a moving projectile that encounters a object in the barrel or a high pressure expanding ball of gas from just the propellent that encounters the projectile the effect is still the same,once either is moving with any velocity ,one does not ,or should not do anything to try and slow it down or delay it's departure in any way until it leaves the confines of the barrel,if you do it will seek other ways out of the barrel.If the projectile or obstruction is encountered before pressure has risen substantially then it might move with little or no damage to said barrel,the closer it is to the source of pressure the greater the chance of it moving without slowing down the expanding gasses.
Mickc01
45 Cal.
Definitely the C02 discharger. I've used mine twice, once when I couldn't get the ball seated (I have a bum shoulder and it had had all the ramming it could take) and once when i got a cleaning patch stuck in the barrel. Worked like a charm.
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