Random fliers...

[dkasprzak]

New to the forum and need suggestions. Pulled out my percussion TC Hawken .50 I built from a kit in 1984. After a lot of cleaning and reading here on the forum I’ve started working (re-working) up the load. All was going well, I am using PRB .490 balls, .015 prelubed patches, and 70 grain Goex FFg. At 25 yards I had it grouping inside of 3”, it does shoot about 2” high but I’m aware of that and compensate. Once I had confidence in the load I felt ready to move out to 50 yards. I also had to purchase a new box of balls, Hornady .490 at the same time I went from 25 yards to 50 yards.

Now at 50 yards I am getting random fliers too often. Most go high but occasionally one will go left or right. The odd part is, I can string together 3-4 shots that group inside of 5” at 50 yards but then the next shot may be a flier. Had one today go about 12” high, another about 6” to the left, another about 6” high. This has caused me to really start losing confidence in using the gun for hunting.

After each shot my routine is:

Wipe bore with patch soaked with Bore Shine -repeat with the other side of the patch
Wipe bore with dry patch - repeat with the other side of the patch
Load 70 gr prelubed patch and ball

I have tried a few shots with 80 grain and 90 grain while at the 25 yard range and the pattern definitely opens up.

I guess my one real question is...what procedure can be used to reduce (eliminate) fliers. I really want to hunt with this gun, I’ve taken two deer this year, both within 25 yards. I would like to be confident out to 50 yards.

Thanks....Dave

 

[SDSmlf]

Have you looked at Dutch’s system? If not, might be time, as it will address a lot if your questions. You can pm Dutch on the forum at @Dr5x or go to his website, Black powder rifle accuracy system -

 

[EC121]

Are you using a rest or shooting offhand? From a rest you should be shooting into one big hole at 25yds. Get rid of the prelubed patches. If they are very old, they will be rotten and cause flyers. Try some good patching(also .020") and maybe .495 balls. .015 might be a little thin for a .490. How easy does it load?

 

[tenngun]

What EC 121 said.
Guns do shoot fliers...these unexplained bad shots.... not.
Fliers are caused by, bad ball. Air pockets or waves in the casting or mishandling resulted in the ball going off course.
Bad patch.Prelubed dry out, let blow by or most often tear up in the bore
Bad load, you loaded the ball with the casting flat off center
You pulled off target as you shot.... this is the most common
Get the gun in to a rest, get fresh unlubed patch, lube and shoot. Unless your bores bad you should have a quarter size hole or less at twenty five yards.

 

[dkasprzak]

Thanks for the reply’s....

I have been shooting from a bench (live in the city have to shoot at a range). I just ordered Dutch’s book and will “start over” once I’ve read it.

Will continue this thread as I work through the process.

DK

 

[Britsmoothy]

Is the barrel in contact with the lock plate? Bad juju!
If not good but next try a backing patch first. Think fire wall. Use the blunt end of the rammer or short start the patch then a patched ball.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Get new patches in .015", .018" & .020". Lube them with a quality patch lube. Get some .490" & .495". Try different combinations a patches & balls & examine your fired patches, if the range will allow you to. If not, use the patch/ball combo that loads tight, but not so tight you can't push the ball down with normal force. If you have to "drive" the ball in, it is too tight for hunting. I suspect your patch is too thin for a .490" ball in your particular bore.

 

[FishDFly]

"examine your fired patches, if the range will allow you to. If not, use the patch/ball combo that loads tight, but not so tight"

Pick up your patches when you go down to change your target and examine them for cuts and tears.

A tight patch and ball will shoot better than a not tight combination.

Ensure when you seat the ball, that you seat it consistently with the same force each time.

Shooting off the bench, place the rifle the same each time on the rest. Rifles will shoot better/more consistent by supporting the end of the rifle as far as you can at the end of the muzzle. The barrel should be laying on something soft, not a hard surface.

Sounds like you are not being consistent from shot to shot, there is a variation going on.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Your problem is that the stock is made from walnut. Those trees are not regularly tapped (like maples and only the occasional walnut are) for syruping, which bleeds the evil spirits out of the tree. There are obviously some in there. Consult Canon law on how best to rectify.

 

[Grenadier1758]

T/C stocks of 1984 should be made of walnut.

The T/C rifling is shallow and requires a tight ball and patch to the bore for best accuracy on target. You also need a patch lubricant that is capable of softening the fouling, but not so slick that the ball and patch skip over the rifling. Your wiping with Bore Shine is Okay. Really what you wipe between shots is less important than taking care to prevent fouling from being pushed into the flash channel. You are not indicating any failure to fire problems so that is okay. T/C rifles have a chambered breech and fouling has a bad habit of finding its way into the chambered breech. Occasionally I fire a cap to clean out the chambered breech.

How is the nipple? A nipple with a burned out orifice causes variations in pressure. Variations open groups.

What powder are you using? I see that you using GOEX 2Fg. Try using 65 grains or maybe 75 grains.

Most likely cause of the fliers is variation in ball weight. While the Hornady balls are swaged and internal voids are unlikely, there are instances where ball weight in excess of two to 5 grains is seen. If you can, weigh the balls and shoot for group those balls within one grain of each other.

Do shoot for group off a solid rest with sandbags if possible. You want the rest to be be solid and not adding to vibrations from the shot. Sit comfortably, with the stock resting on the sand bag at the entry thimble. If you can, keep your sights in the shade. The sun glinting on the front sight makes keeping the point of aim very difficult. I have made shaders from the core tube of a roll of paper towels or the core tube from toilet paper. Cut a slit along the length. The pressure from the cut tube will hold it on the barrel.

A change in wind direction will deflect a ball out of a good group. When you get a flier, did it go in the direction of the wind or away from the direction of the sun?

I cut my patches at the muzzle and use my own patch lubricant.

 

[SDSmlf]

I guess my one real question is...what procedure can be used to reduce (eliminate) fliers.

Likely something very simple causing your problem. Difficulty is identifying that simple issue or issues. Here are some things to consider, at least in my opinion. And as you change or try different things, do them one at a time.

Problem with the gun. Bad bore? Loose barrel? Lose sights?

Problem with components. Wrong sized balls? Different weight balls (voids in them)? Patch thickness (too thin)? Patch material (is it a tight weave cotton)? Deteriorating older pre-lubed patch material (you did mention 1984)? Try a wad between the powder and ball to protect the patch (if accuracy improves wound confirm wrong or bad patch). Cleaning solution (are you using BP Bore Shine or the Bore Shine intended for smokeless)?

Problem with your load. You should find at least one accurate load load with charges of 2F or 3F somewhere between 50 and 80 grains. You mentioned groups opened up more over 70 grains. Trying reducing your charge.

Problem with how you shoot. Can you shoot one hole groups at 25 yards with a different iron sighted gun? If someone else shoots the gun, how does it group? You may want to just shoot for group size as long as you are on the paper and not worry about compensating to get on the bullseye. Not having a consistent and clear aiming point may be causing variation.

There are other things to consider, but above are my recommendations as far as where to start based on what you described.

As others have suggested, you should be getting a ragged hole at 25 yards and one inch groups at 50 yards off the bench with this gun. If things are set up right.

 

[FishnRod]

I would second trying the wad between powder and ball.

 

[azmntman]

I believe you will eliminate fliers when you weigh your balls (per the dutch system). Try that first.

 

[FishDFly]

I believe you will eliminate fliers when you weigh your balls (per the dutch system). Try that first.

Swaged balls are known for their variance in weight, weighing them is worth the time.

Again, the problem is "consistency" between shot to shot.

 

[Spikebuck]

I believe you will eliminate fliers when you weigh your balls (per the dutch system). Try that first.

This is the first thing I was thinking of when I read the OP's post. Not only that, but I've had some HORRIBLE boxes of Hornady round balls...not just weight wise, but balls that are not even round. I only shoot them now if I have a new caliber so I can figure out what size ball I want...then I get a mold and make my own so I have quality control that Hornady apparently does not. If I have leftover Hornady of that caliber, they get thrown into the pot of lead to be made into new.

I have heard that Speer round balls are better than Hornady in consistency, but have no personal experience with them.

 

[SDSmlf]

Here are photographs of the weigh in of two different balls from a single box of purchased balls. Found nearly 10 grains of weigh variation, less than .0005” in diameter variation. Have seen worse, but don’t have photographic evidence. Personally have found that when everything is perfect and using weighed balls will have groups in the one inch range at 100 yards. Mix in the known goofballs from the same box and in the 3-4” range or more. Have seen significant variations in both red and yellow boxes of purchased roundballs.

 

[azmntman]

Dutch knows

 

[renegadehunter]

I struggled with the same thing when first starting out with my TC Renegade. With a .015" prelubed patch it'd actually do pretty decent...but always a flier or two in a 5 shot group. Frustrating to have a 1" group going but then have one or two out of 5 shots open the group up to a 4"-5" group.

I learned on this forum that TC's tend to like a pretty darn tight patch and ball combo, as well as prelubed patches may have sat on a shelf for several years and that causes the patch fibers to break down.

I switched to .018" pillow ticking patches unlubed and started lubing them myself a few days before wanting to use them. I find that just enough lube to get a light coating on the entire patch is what mine prefers. I can alter group sizes by 2" pretty easily (at 50 yards) with too much lube. Mine also shoots much better when I clean (swab) between shots, which you are already doing.

I believe Grenadier brought up that swabbing can push fouling into the patent breech on a TC fairly easily, which I found to be very true. Snapping a cap after swabbing is a good idea to ensure the channel is clear. Your poor groups could easily also be from very slight hang fires from crud being in the flame channel after you cleaned between shots, just slight enough that you can't tell but accuracy is affected.

The posts above are good advice. Get some 018" pillow ticking patches and lube them yourself. I have messed around with trying thicker patches with a RB .010" under bore size, and with a bit thinner patches with a RB .005" under bore size. Mine didn't prefer one over the other, but as long as the fit was about the same tightness to start into the barrel it will shoot either one well. Yours may very well prefer one over the other, won't know until you try.

Make sure the nipple isn't burnt out too much. Nipples that I've worn out do start to open my groups up, but most times I start to see the hammer getting blown back into the half cock position after firing about the same time I'm starting to scratch my head as to why my groups aren't what I expect. Wedge pin fitting nice and snug is also something you want.

Like said above, going from 25 yards to 50 yards really tells you quickly how good of a load combo you have. I don't bother shooting a combo at 50 yards if it won't put them all into a ragged hole at 25 yards, if it won't I just move on to a different combo to try.

After finding a good patch, ball, and lube combo, then playing with the powder charge will likely tighten things up a bit more. Start low at around 55 to 60 grains, shoot a group, then go up 5 grains and shoot another group, etc., etc., until you find the best charge.

 

[dkasprzak]

Thank you for all the replys. My wife purchased some red stripe pillow ticking for me today which I believe to be .018 thick. It will be a few days before I get back to the range to test with this change. I will go back to the 25 yard range for all testing until I can get a ragged hole before I move back out to the 50 yard Range.

Just for information,,, I am shooting from a bench with the rifle resting on sand bags in two supports, one at the end of the fore stock, the other right in front of the trigger guard. The nipple is stainless steel, I believe it to be a hot shot...it looks perfect.

Question on weighing the balls...I have a scale that reads in tenths of an ounce or in grams...I don’t have one that weighs in grains. Is what I have a small enough scale or do I need to look for one that weighs in grains? When I weighed 20 or so balls out of the box I currently have they all weighed the same using either ounces or grams.

I’ll stick to one change at a time, right now it will be the patches and lube (is that two changes since I’m using pre-lubed patches now and will start using dry patches with my own lube?) Anyway, I’ll post how this goes..,like I said, it may be a few days as I am out deer hunting the rest of this week.

For what it’s worth...this problem cost me a doe during this evenings hunt at 45-50 yards. I didn’t have the confidence in the accuracy to take the shot. Will post more after I’ve shot with the new patches...

Thanks again... DK

 

[smo]

Dave, practice,practice, practice!
That will help more than anything...

You reported your gun was shooting high at 25 yards, I’m not sure what distance you’ll be hunting at but I would zero the rifle at close range... 13 yards was recommended somewhere I read.

Once your dead on then move to 25 then 50 yards making sight adjustments as needed.

If you have any fffg powder try it, I usually shot anywhere from 60 - 90 grns of fffg in my T/C guns.. Olive oil lube for hunting , spit patch for plinking. Blue .018 pillow ticking material for patching.
Most seemed too perform best with the lower charges as far as shooting paper.

Stay focused on that front sight...and s-q-u-e-e-z-e the trigger.

They will Kill.....