Random fliers...

[Grenadier1758]

@dkasprzak,
Make sure you wash your new pillow ticking to get the sizing out of the fabric as it came from the bolt. That starchy stuff to make fabric feel good on the bolt is not good for accuracy on target.

 

[Barry Strickland]

First off I will stick in my 2 cents worth here. Some of you may not be familiar with the problem of some TC barrels. When they farmed out the barrel production some of the barrels were awful. That is, they were not up to the traditional TC standards. There is probably somewhere on this forum the serial number sequence of those bad barrels. I was not aware of that problem until a friend wanted help with his TC that was in 45 cal. I have no idea how much time I spent on that piece of trash before I gave up. I then later learned from others that there was a problem with some of the TC barrels. I might note that I have shot in competition since 1970 in pistol, offhand, bench rest and cross sticks. This is in local, Territorial and National competition. I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of shots I have fired. Of all the guns I have worked with in all these years it is the only one I could not make shoot decent groups. That TC ended up with a replacement barrel and now shoots fine. It may be that you have one of those barrels in 50 Cal.

 

[dkasprzak]

Okay guys... here’s the follow up. I purchased Dutch’s book and have started to work through variables one at a time. I purchased a scale and weighed all the balls in my current lot, eliminating the lightest of the lot. All balls shot today weigh 177.0-177.5 grains. I also purchased some pillow ticking that is .015 uncompressed, .009 compressed per Dutch’s method.

I went to the range today and shot three five shot groups using the pillow ticking for patch material. The difference in the groups being the first group was lubed with a 7:1 ratio of water to ballistol, the second group was lubed with olive oil and the third lubed with bore butter.

I hope the picture of the target is legible....

The Bottom left target is the Ballistol Group, the bottom right is the olive oil group and the top target is the bore butter group. I tried to identify point of aim on each target for reference. The results were not at all what I expected. You can see only four shots for both the Ballistol and olive oil groups as one from each missed the paper entirely. And one from the Ballistol group hit the top of the bottom right target.
I have purchased some 7 oz weight denim that measures .017 uncompressed and .009-.010 compressed. I will try that next week with the same three lubes and will post the differences.

If nothing else, at least now I feel like I have a baseline to work from.

 

[bang]

M TC Hawken 50 has been giving me same problem. First shot dang near dead on. After that it gets iffy.
After many rounds of trying every 3 swab, 2 swab, 1 swab it was same.
Changed patches from .015 to .010. No help.
One day a fellow shooter forgot his shooting box so we shared. He used 40 gns in his 50cal so I set my measure at 40. Had been shooting 50gns. Much better accuracy even using less tight .010 patch. Think my 1:48 twist just doesn't like a lot of pressure behind a PRB.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Is the barrel in contact with the lock plate? Bad juju!
If not good but next try a backing patch first. Think fire wall. Use the blunt end of the rammer or short start the patch then a patched ball.

Did you check this.
Buying a book wont fix the problem!

 

[dkasprzak]

Did you check this⬆.
Buying a book wont fix the problem!

I verified this morning the barrel is indeed completely clear of the lock plate.
If the thicker patches do not help I will try the backing patch suggestion...or an over the powder wad.

 

[yonderin]

Late to this game but, a cheap alternative lube is spit patches. I have found that too greasy/oily/slippery a patch doesn't give a good a result as a drier one. IIRC, Dutch's book gives a range of mixtures, 7/1 just seemed to be the best on average. Others will disagree with me, personal opinion.

Any degree of looseness or play in your barrel when in place? If it is moving any, might be making different amounts of contact with the stock and affecting barrel harmonics. Interesting that two groups gave more horizontal stringing and one more vertical.

There are a lot of variables at play. Even suppository guns can take a lot of tweaking to get the finest results from.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

I think your approach is too haphazard. I would suggest that you pick a ball diameter, patch thickness, & lube. Then shoot groups with powder charges from 60 to 80 grains in 5 grain increments. If you get a decent group, you can then "tweak" things a little by changing patch & lube to experiment. If you don't get anything resembling a "group", try a different ball, patch, lube combo & the same powder charge ladder. If still no luck, stop wasting your time and money & get a new barrel. I once changed my powder charge weight from 70 to 75 grains & my groups went from 10" to 2". Just my two cents!

 

[dkasprzak]

@Old Hawkeye

Thanks for the suggestions, I have already done the different powder charges as you suggest and have settled on 70 grain. I am now in the process of doing your second suggestion of different patch/different lube combinations. Next week when I go out to the range the only difference will be an .018 uncompressed/.011 compressed patch. As I did this week I will shoot five rounds using this patch, one round with olive oil, one with Dutch’s dry patch @7:1 ratio and one with Bore Butter. If I get satisfactory results with one of the lubes with this patch size I will then “tweak” the powder charge to see what I get.

If I don’t get satisfactory results I will start over with .495 balls and .015 patches. I’ve also ordered mink oil from TOW to replace the Bore Butter.

I believe you and I are are on the same page from a methodical process viewpoint.

More results to come next week...

 

[dkasprzak]

There are a lot of variables at play. Even suppository guns can take a lot of tweaking to get the finest results from

@yonderin
I have no response for this other than a good chuckle, that’s hilarious!

 

[Grenadier1758]

One shot groups won't tell you much. You need a minimum of a 3 shot group and a 5 shot group is a better indicator of what your accuracy potential will be.

Load development takes a lot of shooting.

 

[dkasprzak]

Finally made it back to the range yesterday..

Shot three five shot 50 yard groups using 70 grains 2F Goex, .490 balls that all weigh between 177.0-177.5 grains, .018 denim patch that compressed to .011. First group lubed with Dutch’s 6:1 Ballistol to water, second group lubed with olive oil, third group lubed with Bore Butter.

The Bore Butter Group was so bad I didn’t take a picture of the target. I have one tube of Bore Butter that will no longer be used with my muzzleloader...maybe I can use it to lube door hinges so they don’t squeak. I would offer to give someone the Bore Butter but...you really don’t want it.

This is the 6:1 Ballistol group now...the shot in the five ring was totally my fault. It IS NOT a flier...

And this is the group using Olive Oil

Next week will test again using 75 grains and 80 grains with the 6:1 Ballistol....if time permits I’ll do the same with Olive Oil.

Still waiting on the Mink Oil to arrive.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Finally made it back to the range yesterday..

Shot three five shot 50 yard groups using 70 grains 2F Goex, .490 balls that all weigh between 177.0-177.5 grains, .018 denim patch that compressed to .011. First group lubed with Dutch’s 6:1 Ballistol to water, second group lubed with olive oil, third group lubed with Bore Butter.

The Bore Butter Group was so bad I didn’t take a picture of the target. I have one tube of Bore Butter that will no longer be used with my muzzleloader...maybe I can use it to lube door hinges so they don’t squeak. I would offer to give someone the Bore Butter but...you really don’t want it.

This is the 6:1 Ballistol group now...the shot in the five ring was totally my fault. It IS NOT a flier...

View attachment 63400

And this is the group using Olive Oil

View attachment 63401

Next week will test again using 75 grains and 80 grains with the 6:1 Ballistol....if time permits I’ll do the same with Olive Oil.

Still waiting on the Mink Oil to arrive.

I notice the vertical stringing!
Get some three f and put the same amount in.
Your rifle is greedy for pressure. In my worthless opinion.

 

[dkasprzak]

Was able to get in another session today, I’ll let the target do the talking. Thanks to everyone for their input and ideas, they were much appreciated. ~Dave K

 

[nhmoose]

Nice 50-2X!!!!!

Try some .495 balls it's coming along well.

 

[Britsmoothy]

That's much better. Well done.

 

[S.Kenton]

New to the forum and need suggestions. Pulled out my percussion TC Hawken .50 I built from a kit in 1984. After a lot of cleaning and reading here on the forum I’ve started working (re-working) up the load. All was going well, I am using PRB .490 balls, .015 prelubed patches, and 70 grain Goex FFg. At 25 yards I had it grouping inside of 3”, it does shoot about 2” high but I’m aware of that and compensate. Once I had confidence in the load I felt ready to move out to 50 yards. I also had to purchase a new box of balls, Hornady .490 at the same time I went from 25 yards to 50 yards.

Now at 50 yards I am getting random fliers too often. Most go high but occasionally one will go left or right. The odd part is, I can string together 3-4 shots that group inside of 5” at 50 yards but then the next shot may be a flier. Had one today go about 12” high, another about 6” to the left, another about 6” high. This has caused me to really start losing confidence in using the gun for hunting.

After each shot my routine is:

Wipe bore with patch soaked with Bore Shine -repeat with the other side of the patch
Wipe bore with dry patch - repeat with the other side of the patch
Load 70 gr prelubed patch and ball

I have tried a few shots with 80 grain and 90 grain while at the 25 yard range and the pattern definitely opens up.

I guess my one real question is...what procedure can be used to reduce (eliminate) fliers. I really want to hunt with this gun, I’ve taken two deer this year, both within 25 yards. I would like to be confident out to 50 yards.

Thanks....Dave

have you tried an over powder card yet .. that’s acrumpled up patch between the powder charge and the patched ball.

 

[COTNTOP]

After all this I'm back to the drawing board.

 

[Mark Herman]

I've read this entire post and no one suggested using a heavier patch. You refer to your patching as "uncompressed", you need to try .015 to .018 compressed patching. I even use some .020 in one of my 50's with .495 balls. A dime to a donut says your groups will tighten up and be more consistent.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I've read this entire post and no one suggested using a heavier patch. You refer to your patching as "uncompressed", you need to try .015 to .018 compressed patching. I even use some .020 in one of my 50's with .495 balls. A dime to a donut says your groups will tighten up and be more consistent.

Maybe, just maybe not everyone wants to hammer a tight ball and patch combination down a barrel and quite frankly is not historically correct!
The OP's new groups is a vast improvement and thankfully a departure from that very near dry patch nonsense!