Rangers Musket

[FlinterNick]

My first thought is : Dont put curly in a bess. But on second thought, I do have a photo of a colonial civilian smoothie that looks more like a musket then a fowling gun. Is on curly and sports a patch box, though it’s general styling is robust.

Walnut with a slight curl is a very interesting look. It was used on some French muskets. Here is a 1763 original in walnut with a slight curl.

 

[firemanjim68]

Hi all,
Used to be a member here long ago under a different name. Had to go through the whole process again under a new name.
Anyway, glad to be back and after stumbling across this thread, l wanted to give y'all a little more insight on this particular musket.

This Rogers Rangers carbine prototype is actually one l ordered last year from Sitting Fox Muzzleloaders.

Ray Franks has built a rifle for me before and so one day when l was browsing through his website l saw that he had advertised on his website a bunch of future projects which included a Roger's Rangers carbine.

To make a long story short, l wanted this carbine based mostly on my love for the movie "Northwest Passage", but because l just love the look of grade 7 curly maple versus walnut, l decided to go for looks more so than historical accuracy which is kinda moot point anyway with this weapon since no one really knows what any of the Rangers cut up muskets really looked like.

Anyway, sadly for me during the covid crisis my finances got short and l had to cancel my order but Mr. Franks had the thing built anyway and so there it is on his website for sale.

I got in touch with him last week and I'll probably be buying this from him after all now that my finances are getting better.
It is a beautiful gun even though l had envisioned the carbine differently than what you see here and more like the India made version sold by Middlesex Trading Village.

Still, it is a nice carbine and definitely unique and l personally can't wait to get it at long last. .

Just so y'all know, he did send me an email that future models of the Rogers's Ranger's carbine will be in a different caliber and all the metal work will be in a subdued finish which makes sense since no Ranger would want anything shiny in .combat.
Anyway, that's the back story on this carbine if anyone was interested.
Hoping to pick it up in a month or two and if l do get it before anyone else snatches it up, I'll post some more pics of it.

 

[nkbj]

Yeah you guys, the barrel is way too round, the bore probably isn't even rusty and the wood is entirely too handsome to be an interpretation of a Ranger's musket.

 

[FlinterNick]

Yeah you guys, the barrel is way too round, the bore probably isn't even rusty and the wood is entirely too handsome to be an interpretation of a Ranger's musket.

Generally anyone I’ve come across with a rangers musket, calls it that because nobody really knows what a rangers musket it. My interpretation has always been a british musket with modifications, like an older musket that has been shortened, remarked or has had some changes to reduce weight. Or a second model brown bess marked “queens rangers”.

 

[firemanjim68]

Well after reading all the replies on this topic l find myself rather discouraged about buying this carbine after all.
As pretty as it is it seems to be too pricey considering some if the flaws in the inletting and while I'm no snob when it comes to India made guns, it frustrates me to see that the lock is possibly India made which l know can be iffy in reliability compared to locks that could have been bought from better quality kits out there.
Looks like l may just have to wait till someone wants to part with their Pedersoli carbine l guess.

 

[Tacksman45]

I have to agree with Loyalist Dave on this one. I think the muskets being cut down specifically for Ranger units is a myth. Instead of buying one of these "Ranger Muskets" I would encourage you to look at a French, Dutch, English, or even Spanish import type gun. And many of these can have a barrel of any length within reason.

 

[firemanjim68]

Well, being as I'm not a reenactor I'm not too worried about accuracy, but l was looking forward to getting something unique for my collection of muzzleloaders.
Unfortunately, this carbine seems to fall short.
Like l said, I'll probably just wait till someone wants to give up their Pedersoli carbine for a fair price.

 

[FlinterNick]

Well after reading all the replies on this topic l find myself rather discouraged about buying this carbine after all.
As pretty as it is it seems to be too pricey considering some if the flaws in the inletting and while I'm no snob when it comes to India made guns, it frustrates me to see that the lock is possibly India made which l know can be iffy in reliability compared to locks that could have been bought from better quality kits out there.
Looks like l may just have to wait till someone wants to part with their Pedersoli carbine l guess.

If it were me I’d never buy a reproduction musket with any Indian made parts, they’re just never really ‘right’. The locks are always made with softer metal, over polished and have fewer features than a real quality casted reproduction.

 

[FlinterNick]

Well, being as I'm not a reenactor I'm not too worried about accuracy, but l was looking forward to getting something unique for my collection of muzzleloaders.
Unfortunately, this carbine seems to fall short.
Like l said, I'll probably just wait till someone wants to give up their Pedersoli carbine for a fair price.

I’d actually recommend the English Fowler by Chambers, its not a difficult kit and has many of the features of a Brown Bess. You could add a nose band, decorative band and sling swivels and call it a fusil And I’ve seen this done before.

 

[firemanjim68]

That's my fear over this carbine that the lock will end up being the Achilles heel of this gun.
If l do end up buying this thing l would eventually replace the lock but it seems such a waste of time and money to be forced to do so because someone chose to cut corners.


Oh, and l already have a Fowler but thanks for the suggestion.

 

[FlinterNick]

I worked on one Indian lock a few years back. It was a mediocre sparker, the mainspring was ok, but the internals were soft. I’m not sure what kind of steel they were using. but I do know that India is big on using recycled steels from shipyards and old appliances, I don’t think they have a set carbon steel standard for this locks. The only think I could do is heavily case harden the frizzen with activated charcoal, which gave it about 15-20 rounds with each sparkler getting less and less effective.

 

[firemanjim68]

Lol,

Yeah, that there is my concern and would be my greatest source of frustration.
Friend of mine built me a beautiful Lancaster flinter years ago and try as l might, the dang thing just would not spark. It was an L&R lock and the problem was the frizzen needed to be hardened.

Having to harden a frizzen every 20 rounds?.......pass.

What a crying shame.....

 

[FlinterNick]

Lol,

Yeah, that there is my concern and would be my greatest source of frustration.
Friend of mine built me a beautiful Lancaster flinter years ago and try as l might, the dang thing just would not spark. It was an L&R lock and the problem was the frizzen needed to be hardened.

Having to harden a frizzen every 20 rounds?.......pass.

What a crying shame.....

Some Indian made locks are don’t a little better than others, but in most of my experiences, they’re just not reliable. You can try to fit a high quality casted frizzen on them, that’s always an option, but you’re talking $20-40 for the frizzen and then another 50-$100 for the work on something that should be in a good working condition.

 

[firemanjim68]

Yeah....crying shame.

Well anyway, l just bought myself another flinter that l always wanted from another forum member so that'll be my consolation gift to myself for now.

 

[Rudyard]

Every one rubbishes Indian muskets. I got up numbers of them, made them positive fire risks. Re enactors chased me for them even Dixons bought one thinking it was my make . On the usual principal of' Cobblers kids are poorest shod' my own Re enactment Bess was a dodged up of some Colonels private purchess variant , convex side plate, composit,,looking fore pipe , made the miserable tang apron much better formed it was a got up of three broken ones but it served me very well. . I left it in the US . I did half sole them with E N 9 a tool steel . and case hardened every iron part , steel part this is .And made the springs balance properly . Didn't seem that much work But writing it out it seems a lot .The rubbishers have a point! .
Rudyard

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Anyone have a suggestion on where I could get a Bess stock In curly maple to restock my carbine similar to this RR gun in the OP?

Dunlap Woodcrafts

You should contact them to see if they have anything in curly maple. They DO make a pre shaped Bess stock for Pedersoli parts, with a better angle on the butt for more comfortable shooting. I have one myself. (wish I'd get around to finishing it) they also make rough blanks, so you can get something in curly maple, but a lot more work fitting the parts to the wood....Bess barrels are pretty wide at the breech, and so you may have to wait for them to cut a stock blank thick enough.... if stock blanks are available during the COVID.

Dunlap Woodcraft "Military Stocks" ; Bess

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

Dunlap Woodcrafts

You should contact them to see if they have anything in curly maple. They DO make a pre shaped Bess stock for Pedersoli parts, with a better angle on the butt for more comfortable shooting. I have one myself. (wish I'd get around to finishing it) they also make rough blanks, so you can get something in curly maple, but a lot more work fitting the parts to the wood....Bess barrels are pretty wide at the breech, and so you may have to wait for them to cut a stock blank thick enough.... if stock blanks are available during the COVID.

Dunlap Woodcraft "Military Stocks" ; Bess

LD

I wish they made the stock for the Charleville still, they discontinued it.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I wish they made the stock for the Charleville still, they discontinued it.

TECHNICALLY.....,

The still do, as unless they have changed their policy, they can copy any stock that you provide them. Which means that if you want a stock they don't produce, but can get hold of one such, you can get them to make it for you. Also you can get them to make "corrections" to something in the stock shape by altering the "master" stock which you provide. Which is why one can get the "easier to shoot" Bess stock, for example..., somebody provided a "corrected stock" to them for the Pedersoli Bess, and they liked it so much they kept producing it. The PROBLEM is that (iirc) the minimum order for the stocks when you give them something new to do, is a dozen, and at $300 each, that means you have to pony-up $3600, plus shipping. THEN you need to figure out what to do with the other 11 stocks, that you now own. I suppose you could find buyers for them....

I confess that I've toyed with the idea of having them copy an India stock in walnut, with some changes to that stock, if for no other reason than to drop a couple pounds off the India made muskets. Heck, swapping over the the parts to the American made stock would still put the India musket at less than the cost of the Italian...., and who cares if you bang up and India made repro while reenacting ??


LD

 

[FlinterNick]

TECHNICALLY.....,

The still do, as unless they have changed their policy, they can copy any stock that you provide them. Which means that if you want a stock they don't produce, but can get hold of one such, you can get them to make it for you. Also you can get them to make "corrections" to something in the stock shape by altering the "master" stock which you provide. Which is why one can get the "easier to shoot" Bess stock, for example..., somebody provided a "corrected stock" to them for the Pedersoli Bess, and they liked it so much they kept producing it. The PROBLEM is that (iirc) the minimum order for the stocks when you give them something new to do, is a dozen, and at $300 each, that means you have to pony-up $3600, plus shipping. THEN you need to figure out what to do with the other 11 stocks, that you now own. I suppose you could find buyers for them....

I confess that I've toyed with the idea of having them copy an India stock in walnut, with some changes to that stock, if for no other reason than to drop a couple pounds off the India made muskets. Heck, swapping over the the parts to the American made stock would still put the India musket at less than the cost of the Italian...., and who cares if you bang up and India made repro while reenacting ??


LD

Yeah, I had that discussion with Dan at Dunlap. He said they were not getting enough demand for the Charlevilles so stopped making them. He tried to convince me to try the 1795/1808 stock pattern which is close but the comb on the French Charleville is slightly higher with more drop.

Rifle Shoppe is where I went for a new stock, haven’t received it yet.

 

[firemanjim68]

I cant say I rubbish the India muskets entirely, honestly.

Some of them look pretty good and I don't drink the kool-aid on their being nothing more than cheap pipe bombs. although I would have them tested at the dealer before it was shipped to me.

That aside, it seems to me that their biggest flaw, aside from cosmetics, is the lock which obviously is the most ESSENTIAL part of any muzzleloader.

Thing is, I know that if I ever do buy an India-made gun, the first thing to go would be the lock and hope and pray that it can be replaced with a better quality lock that wouldn't require too much inletting and fiddling around with in order to make it work.

Then again one is left up with the question of whether or not it's really worth the hassle.