RB's: swagged vs. cast!

[PreglerD]

Hello from Germany!

After harvesting 12 roedeer with my .50 ML using PRB and bp I think it is time to post some expiriences about the used balls.
When I started hunting with ML I used swagged RB from the german brand "Händler & Nattermann". They are famous ML bullet makers, but mostly for target shooting. The first 4 roedeer I harvested with their balls and had always escapes after clean killing hits. The farest search was for a 6 point roebuck. He went 80 m into a thicket without a bloodtrail even he was hit through both lounges, liver and ball exited. :cursing: The other 3 peaces showed similar shotplacement, but also no bloodtrails, even the harvest was in winter over snow. :shocked2: These deer went between 30 and 50 m. After that I changed to self cast PRB of soft lead out of a Rapine bag mould. Suddenly all roedeer died in their tracks or went only a few steps. :grin: So my expirience is that these soft cast lead balls are better, because they give more energy to the game while more mushrooming.

What are your expiriences?

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[rabjr]

I dunno Dirk I harvested more than few deer myself and not to be smartass ours are a bit bigger than yours. The first thing that raises an eye brow here is whenever I see the shot entered the liver. Yes that happens on some angles and that tells me your either taking shots that don't take out both lungs or god for bid if the animal is broadside, your hitting them to far back. Hell those shots will kill em but they tend to bleed inside which is the reason for lack of blood trail.

We all have to make up our mind to what is ethical and not when it comes to the shot.

I have used swaged, home cast and slightly harder lead than pure with one gun. Don't matter what I use. From my two .54 cal, .58 custom or .12g custom, eight have dropped where they stood and two which were heart shot, one ran 50 yard, the other an unbelievable 90 yards before dropping.

I don't think it's the ball you need to worry about.

 

[musketman]

Swagged or casting roundballs are the methods used in the ball making process, it should have nothing to do with the hardness of the lead or the way it performes in flight or how it goes through the animal.

If both swagged and cast roundballs start out using pure lead, then they will be the same hardness, however, swagged balls tend to have less air trapped inside and ball weights are somewhat more uniformed.

Weighing the cast roundballs will show if there are hidden air pockets in them, if the weight is lighter than the standard for that caliber, chances are it has an air bubble hidden within. Many roundball casters return these to the pot to remelt them and try again.

 

[Semisane]

Well Kirrmeister, twelve deer gives you a pretty good basis for comparison, assuming the shots were pretty much in the same place. Are those Händler & Nattermann balls hardened or alloyed? you can do a hardness comparison between your cast balls and those other balls with a regular floor scale and a screwdriver. Place the ball in the center of the scale and press on it with the blade of the screwdriver until the scale reaches 50 lbs. Do the same thing with both balls and compare the mark made by the screwdriver. You have to hold the ball in place to do it, so watch your fingers.

 

[pmwest]

Weigh both the swaged balls and the cast. If the swaged balls are lighter, then they are a harder alloy than pure. At muzzleloading velocities, pure lead gives better terminal energy transfer.

It is my opinion that an orb cast by your own hand understands that its mission is to deliver the goods at the end of a successful hunt. How could a mass produced projectile understand this?

 

[Semisane]

It is my opinion that an orb cast by your own hand understands that its mission is to deliver the goods at the end of a successful hunt. How could a mass produced projectile understand this?

DANG Wildshot!!! That just may be the most insightful philosophy I've ever seen revealed on this forum. It gives a whole new meaning to my casting sessions. Should I talk to the balls as I drop them from the mold? :hatsoff:

 

[rabjr]

How could a mass produced projectile understand this?

I don't know, I don't care but they have a bit of magic themselves and there ain't no way I'm getting anywheres near hot lead. :v

 

Weigh both the swaged balls and the cast ones. Lyman provides a formula with their molds using a mixture of lead and type. Some of the bullet company used a special mixture using Lyman's idea for their target shooting customers. When still shooting and running around to the events in North America you had to becareful who's products you used because of this. One manufacturers would be lighter than another's in both the swaged and cast balls. Talk about fliers. :youcrazy:

I think that WildShot's statement is correct or very close to what your problem may be. :thumbsup:

"If the swaged balls are lighter, then they are a harder alloy than pure. At muzzleloading velocities, pure lead gives better terminal energy transfer".

 

[crockett]

Kirrmeister : you raise an interesting topic and I'm not sure whether anyone on this forum can give you a good answer. I think what you are asking is if there is a difference between a swagged round ball and a cast round ball.
First, there is the issue of pure lead or a lead alloy. According to the theory pure lead is heavier and softer and ought to be more destructive on a game animal. I think it may also be capable of higher velocity but I'm not certain on that.
BUT what if all other factors are equal, pure lead swagged and pure lead cast? Is there some sort of molecular difference that makes one better than another?
The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association has a monthly magazine called Muzzle Blasts. In each issue is a column by the Bevel Brothers- these guys test out ideas. They probably have ballistic gelatin. Try asking them- maybe they could test the two in the gelatin to see if there is a difference.
These guys come up with some interesting stuff- such as whether dimples on a round ball (like on a golf ball) would improve accuracy.

 

[hanshi]

I've killed exactly ONE deer with a bought, swagged ball. It dropped in it's tracks. All others (including small game) were taken with my hand cast balls. A good portion dropped in their footie prints. The others ran 25 to 50 yards leaving a blood trail. Other than that one case, I always use my own hand cast balls. I take no special pains with them other than a visual check. Accuracy has never been a problem and I've never been plagued by wild fliers. I've weighed a few and variation was within my set parameters. I just cast & shoot.

 

[R.M.]

I would say, contact the manufacturers and ask them the alloy used. Every brand could be different.

 

[PreglerD]

Hi Swampy,

to prevent missunderstandings! Only this 80 m walking buck had a lounge and liver shot. All other roes had lounge shots. So no need to claim about german hunters as "unethical livershooters" or "to far back aimers". :shake: Aming and hitting at the lounge is also in Gemany king if the game stands broadside! :thumbsup:


Regards :hatsoff:

Kirrmeister

 

[roundball]

I've always used Hornady pure lead swaged balls in .40/.45/.50/.54/.58cals for hunting and they've always been very accurate and excellent on game but the largest Hornady ball is a .58cal.

When I got a .62cal rifle I bought some commercial cast .600"s that are supposed to be 100% pure lead...they were also very accurate and I've taken a few deer with them...seem to work fine.

 

[pmwest]

to prevent missunderstandings!

How could there be any misunderstanding? Some deer just don’t know when to die, or when they are already dead.

Should I talk to the balls as I drop them from the mold?

You mean you don’t?? I find it helps to encourage the molten metal to fill out the mold too. Carefully weigh each casting and sort the best behaved out for the hunting bag. The average ones go to the range to learn what to do. Recovered from the bullet trap they will get a second opportunity to rise to the top of the class. The best of the best, the ones that get the first opportunity at game, need special attention. Doesn’t hurt to carry them in your pocket on Sunday mornings.

 

[rabjr]

Hi Swampy,

to prevent missunderstandings! Only this 80 m walking buck had a lounge and liver shot. All other roes had lounge shots. So no need to claim about german hunters as "unethical livershooters" or "to far back aimers". :shake: Aming and hitting at the lounge is also in Gemany king if the game stands broadside! :thumbsup:


Regards :hatsoff:

Kirrmeister

So no need to claim about german hunters as "unethical livershooters" or "to far back aimers".

I never said this nor claimed it.

I believe I have seen more than once you claim a lung/liver shot, which makes me wonder about the angles your shooting these deer at. I could be totally wrong and hope I am but I can't help but notice how defensive the above quote is and theres no reason for it.

 

[PreglerD]

You are right more than once, but not more than two or three times.
BTW why should a livershot together with longeshot be bad? These roedeer are a bit smaller as your whitetails, so the boilerroom too.

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dirk: With all mammals, you want to take a "heart/lung" shot, and since in deer the heart is laying down on the sternum( ribcage) at the bottom of the chest, with the lungs above it, you try to hit JUST BEHIND that front leg, and in the bottom 1/3 of the chest area. Its better to break a front leg getting to the lungs, than to shoot further back and get a Liver shot.

In fact, I make a habit of lining up my angle of shot so that the ball goes through both lungs, and or heart-aortas area, and then breaks the off shoulder or leg.

The one deer I killed with a shot from a treestand, coming towards me, resulted in breaking the closest shoulder, and leg bones, before penetrating the Left lung, and then taking the top off the heart. The deer was knocked down, but got up and stumbled about 25 feet before it went down for good.

Oh, I stay away from shooting the Liver, at all costs, because fresh liver is like eating Prime Rib, when prepared quickly after the kill.

 

[rabjr]

You are right more than once, but not more than two or three times.
BTW why should a livershot together with longeshot be bad? These roedeer are a bit smaller as your whitetails, so the boilerroom too.

Regards

Kirrmeister

Until you understand this question, your going to continue to ask the first question.

Your problem is shot placement, not what ball you use.Yes these Roedeer are smaller but your hunting them over a bait pile. Don't shoot it soon as you see it, wait for the perfect shot. No need for angled shots on a bait pile. And if it's to dark and you have a hard time seeing it, don't shoot.

An animal that small should not run off that far without a blood trail, if you did your part and made sure the shot was placed right.

 

[PreglerD]

In german hunting courses you are teached to make a shot behind the blade into the lounge and not onto the blade. Because of the smallness of the roedeer there is the possibility to hit too far behind and into the lounge/liver area. When this "accident" happens it is not to much damage. This is want I wante to say.
The better hit is certainly the lounge-only hit!

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[PreglerD]

Swampy,

you are not right! Deadly hit roedeer can walk up to 100m without a bloodtrail, even when they had a loungeshot.

I'm not the only hunter who made this expirience.

Regards

Kirrmeister