RB's: swagged vs. cast!

[Roy]

I have seen a heart shot deer go a pretty good distance... but a double lung shot, personally, I have never had one go too far at all. I have been fortunate in that way though. Anyway not to get into pissing contest with anyone, I have had great effects with both swagged and cast balls out of a .50 on whitetails. I do not think they knew or cared to know the difference. I tend to cast now because I have a lead pot and lead to melt.(except for my .32)... I shoot what is most accurate and limit my shots.

 

[Dphar]

Swampy,

you are not right! Deadly hit roedeer can walk up to 100m without a bloodtrail, even when they had a loungeshot.

I'm not the only hunter who made this expirience.

Regards

Kirrmeister

In the 1830s I think it was William Drummond Stewart who found that Elk were easier to knock down than Mule Deer. If it was Stewart he was using a 20 bore(.62) rifle. Ruxton, the other candidate, was using a 24 bore (.58).
The key is the tougher the animal the more energy is transferred to the animal.
For example, a 500 gr RN or small flat bullet in a 45 caliber BPCR is nearly useless for shooting deer. Still they work very well on Buffalo.
A light bullet, such as a 270-350 grain 45 with a large flat point works better on deer, but really not any better than a 50-54 RB.

Like you I would suspect that the factory made balls you used are somewhat harder and reduced energy transfer in the small animal.

A round ball is a very effective hunting bullet so long as it is properly sized for the game.
A .490 RB is perfectly adequate for deer but is perhaps a little light for our Elk or Moose.
The only totally reliable way to "stop" deer (the larger deer I hunt at least) is to interrupt the electrical signals down the spine either by striking or heavily shocking the spinal cord/brain.

The other answer is usually a larger ball.
However, I had a mule deer doe run 55 yards after being shot at the base of the throat with a .662 ball, making a large void at the top of the heart had been. So it is tough to anchor some animals.

The problem is that deer can cover amazing distances in a panic run of just a few seconds. I have seen heavily hit whitetails make 200 yards with their feet only touching the ground 10 times. Dying mid-leap. I had snow and a blood trail (not needed in a hay field) but she still made that distance after being shot through just under the front of the shoulder blades. I had a mule deer doe do that same when perfectly lung shot with a 50 cal. Large blood trail though. I have seen pretty long runs, 100 yards plus, with almost any firearm, pretty potent BP cartridge rifles, modern HV etc.

So I perfectly understand deer running, sometimes as if uninjured, after being shot. There are no absolutes in this and blood trails often do not appear until the deer has covered some distance and may not be very evident at all until the deer is found

Best regards
Dan

 

[PreglerD]

Dan you made another point which is my expirience too. These small and light roedeer seem unable to absorbe as much bullet energy as heavier kinds of game like whitetails and red stags. Remember a roedeer weights about 25-30 kg/50-60 lps. That is not more than a whitetail fawn. Perhaps a bigger ball would do better?

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[rabjr]

I'm not trying to be argumentive. It just don't matter what type of ball you use, it's shot placement that counts. If you need Penetration go with a harder ball but this does not seem to be the case. Although....you may want to change your aim closer to the shoulder blade here. If so even though the animal is smaller I might go with a harder ball or up to .54 cal.

 

[poordevil]

You know, it might even be good to slow the ball down, therefore spending more time in the animal, and going slower it will tear more rather than pearce through. MAybe??

Pat

 

[rabjr]

You know, it might even be good to slow the ball down, therefore spending more time in the animal, and going slower it will tear more rather than pearce through. MAybe??

Pat

I'm sorry Pat but thats not going to make up for poor shot placement. Not sure how many posts you've seen but Roe Deer just ain't that big and should not be that hard to put down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_Deer

 

[roundball]

In my humble opinion even a .40cal would be fine for a smallish 40-50 pound animal, certainly a .45cal would...about the weight of a coyote.

I suspect the small size means smaller size organs too, so the heart might would not be a very big target.

But any size ball through the heart (or low double lungs) and they only sprint a short distance before crashing...I wouldn't think we need to go to a larger ball.

 

[rabjr]

In my humble opinion even a .40cal would be fine for a smallish 40-50 pound animal, certainly a .45cal would...about the weight of a coyote.

I suspect the small size means smaller size organs too, so the heart might would not be a very big target.

But any size ball through the heart (or low double lungs) and they only sprint a short distance before crashing...I wouldn't think we need to go to a larger ball.

I totally agree with you but have you read the entire thread?

My comment about a harder ball or larger cal was to do with penetrating the shoulder if he's worried about that. I'd rather he did that and put it through both lungs than hit them in the liver because hes afraid to hit the shoulder.

 

[Ron_T.]

As Swampy sez, "shot placement" is all important.

I've shot a good many deer in my 50+ years of hunting with everything from a .338 Win. Mag. down to a .300 Savage and the .300 Savage generally made the quickest kills in many cases because of very exact shot placement (both lungs and the top of the heart).

However, the absolute, fastest 2 kills I ever had was with the .338 Win. Mag. on a very large Canadian moose with a 5-foot antler spread when I severed the spinal cord in the big deer's neck with a handloaded 210 grain Nosler Partition bullet... he went down so hard and so fast that I saw him begin to collapse through my scope even as the pre-'64 Model 70 reared up in recoil. He was running up out of a lake and I shot for his shoulder, but hit his neck instead. The recovered bullet weighed 148 grains... an over 70% weight retention.

Sometimes, it's better to be "lucky" than "good"... :grin:

The other instant kill was with a pre-'64 Model 70 in .270 caliber using a 130 grain soft point that hit & destroyed the mule deer's spine just above his lungs. Again, I was shooting for his lungs/heart... but the off-hand shot went a bit high. He folded up right where he stood (125 yards away) and died instantly.

Like I said, I'd rather be "lucky" than "good"... :thumbsup: :v

Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

 

[hockeyref]

It is my opinion that an orb cast by your own hand understands that its mission is to deliver the goods at the end of a successful hunt. How could a mass produced projectile understand this?

DANG Wildshot!!! That just may be the most insightful philosophy I've ever seen revealed on this forum. It gives a whole new meaning to my casting sessions. Should I talk to the balls as I drop them from the mold? :hatsoff:

Not only talk to them, but speak to them as you would to your mistress.... :shocked2:

 

[hockeyref]

The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association has a monthly magazine called Muzzle Blasts. In each issue is a column by the Bevel Brothers- these guys test out ideas. They probably have ballistic gelatin. Try asking them- maybe they could test the two in the gelatin to see if there is a difference.
These guys come up with some interesting stuff- such as whether dimples on a round ball (like on a golf ball) would improve accuracy.

Did they test this? I have been wondering about that one lately...

 

[PreglerD]

I know that a hit through both lounges is the best. The thing with the lounge and liver shot was an accident which can happen, but should not. I know that :shake: But in my expirience roedeer which have only lounge hits with these swagged balls walk even more far than the ones hit with cast balls.

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[rabjr]

I know that a hit through both lounges is the best. The thing with the lounge and liver shot was an accident which can happen, but should not. I know that :shake: But in my expirience roedeer which have only lounge hits with these swagged balls walk even more far than the ones hit with cast balls.

Regards

Kirrmeister

Kirrm I'm sorry but this,.... no I won't even think about saying what I think of the above. :shake: statement.

According to your previous statments this has only happened, as you say 3 times at the most. Thats hardly enough to come to any conclusions. Of the three how many were hit with a cast ball and how many with swagged ball through the liver?

Don't worry about answering the above, it doesan't need an answer. I'm hopeing you actually see something here....

I have harvested a lot of Whitetails with a swagged ball. They die pretty quick, usually it's a matter of driving my CATV over and dropping a rope down around the antlers but then I don't have a habit of shooting them in the liver.

Your worrying far to much about the ball your using and not enough on where your placeing that ball, swagged or otherwise.

 

[R.M.]

Swamp, I have to wonder if you're not getting a little worked up over nothing? :surrender:
We've all had shots that could have been better placed. He's said numerous times that he doesn't intentionally try for the liver.
Let's let it go. Seems nobody's going to win this one. :shocked2:

 

[rabjr]

Swamp, I have to wonder if you're not getting a little worked up over nothing? :surrender:
We've all had shots that could have been better placed. He's said numerous times that he doesn't intentionally try for the liver.
Let's let it go. Seems nobody's going to win this one. :shocked2:

All I'm saying theres no reason for the original question and I'll continue to argue that. There just is not enough data to conclude anything about which ball is better period. :v

 

[musketman]

Seems nobody's going to win this one.

I agree, this topic has ran its course and I think it is better to close it now before it escalates into something that gets members banned.