Re-creating a Timothy Murphy shot

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smokingoodtimes

32 Cal.
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Hi everyone. I've been getting info off this forum for some time. I recently got into the world of flintlocks. Around Christmas I picked up a Pedersoli Kentucky Flintlock because it was on sale and finally getting the lock tuned the way a wanted it its finally ready and did a little shooting last weekend before it started raining and snowing again. I'm not sure I'm posting in the correct place so if I'm not please forgive me. I've always liked pushing the range of my rifles and was thinking about re-creating the Timothy Murphy shot where he shot a British general at 300 yards, this summer. Has anyone tried this? I'm sure your smarter than I and was wondering what school of design his rifle was and how and what his rifle was loaded with? Also if anyone has some tips would be nice or would I just waste powder and balls trying?
 
It would be an interesting test.

By most accounts the Murphy rifle was a double barrel.
Some say it was a swivel breach.
Are you going to shoot from up a tree?
 
Where are you going to find a British General and how do you get hill to just stand in a field?
 
Thinking you will be surprised when you work out the bullet drop and the powder load needed to produce m/ e for a penetrating kill shot at 300 yards. :)
 
Instead of a British General how about a man sized cutout? I also don't know weather or not he used a conical or round ball. But I would think he had a peep sight on his rifle. I also think he took more than one shot at the guy also. It would be a neat experiment though. In fact I might see about trying the shot myself. Btw, where did the general get shot at? lung, or body shot? I check it out. Was'nt he also on a horse when he got shot? you'll have to factor in that when you get around to trying THE SHOT. Let me check the internet an find out the facts. O.K. Murphy shot at the General 3 times 1st shot grazed an aide, second nicked his horse, the 3rd shot hit the General in the stomach which he died from the next day. He did do this while being in a tree. I checked some more stuff out and it is believed that he did NOT use his double barrel rifle but borrowed a rifle from his friend Eric Ellerson who was said to have the best rifle in the company to make the shot. His double barrel rifle was a swival breech with one hammer. It is a .40 cal. with about 28" barrel.
 
O.k. The shot Murphy made (and there is some debate weather or not he really was the who shot the general) 1st shot hit the cantle of his saddle the 2nd shot passed through the mane of his horse and the 3rd shot hit general Fraser in the stomach of which he died the next day. Murphy is also credited with the shooting a aide that rode up after the general was shot. Most everybody does say the range was around 300 yards.
 
Yes it would be one of my steel cut out targets lol. Thanks for the info Ill give it a try when it warms up. Did they use conicals back then or would it have been a tight patched ball?
 
smokinggoodtimes said:
Hi everyone. I've been getting info off this forum for some time. I recently got into the world of flintlocks. Around Christmas I picked up a Pedersoli Kentucky Flintlock because it was on sale and finally getting the lock tuned the way a wanted it its finally ready and did a little shooting last weekend before it started raining and snowing again. I'm not sure I'm posting in the correct place so if I'm not please forgive me. I've always liked pushing the range of my rifles and was thinking about re-creating the Timothy Murphy shot where he shot a British general at 300 yards, this summer. Has anyone tried this? I'm sure your smarter than I and was wondering what school of design his rifle was and how and what his rifle was loaded with? Also if anyone has some tips would be nice or would I just waste powder and balls trying?


One of three shots at 285 yards. .495 RB 75 gr of FFF Swiss. Shooting from prone no rest.

Redcoat.jpg


Another of the three would have killed his horse. Third was a miss but did impressive damage to a pine tree.

Next. While history credits Murphy with the shot there were others who took Frasier under fire. Frasier did say the man that shot him was in a tree.
I needed about 5 ft of hold over IIRC and about 4 ft of windage. I had shot two shots at a bare spot 20 yards to the right on the hill side to get a POI having not shot the rifle past 150 yards previous.
Murphy is reputed to have had at least one Swivel Breech rifle but we have no idea if he had it at Saratoga or during the war years. It is probable that his rifle was between 44 and 52 caliber. Smaller is unlikely and larger is also unlikely but possible. Making a 300 yard shot with a caliber less than 44-46 would increase the difficulty.

Dan
 
1601phill said:
Thinking you will be surprised when you work out the bullet drop and the powder load needed to produce m/ e for a penetrating kill shot at 300 yards. :)

Its the hole that counts in 1770s.
This is the limb a 495 rb struck at 285 yards. it cut at least 1/2 ball deep in this limb.
P1020169.jpg


This the wound in the tree trunk where the ball stopped.
P1020168-1.jpg

This is a pine in Montana on a high dry hill side.

The ball, so far as I know is till in there. I should have photographed it at the time as it went in and blew off the bark and erupted the wood for about 3". I finally went out and took some photos just because people on the WWW were assuming that a RB would not kill anyone at this distance.
At the time of the revolution had someone been shot in the guts with this load his best hope would to have died as soon as possible after writing his wife/family to eliminate suffering.

This is from a web site's ballistics calc page.

50calRB.jpg


Even if the MV is 100 fps high and the program is in error by 20% this is more than enough velocity for the job.
I think the energy here is several times what the military considers sufficient to produce a wound requiring attention.

Dan
 
Not saying it won't, just that as your photo shows the load has to still have enough ME at 300yards , yours did, suprised at 75gns thought it might of had to have been a heaver load.
 
His rifle( the swivel breech) was on display for a short time at the Old Stone Fort in Schoharie, NY. It had been converted to percussion years later if my memory serves me right. He also spent some time at the fort also if I recall what I read about it. It was during the Iroquois/British raids into the Valley. To me it was an honor and privilege to stand where our forefathers did.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!
 
Some more information..., Murphy I don't recall ever took personal credit for the shot. It would be very odd for the general to correctly identify the origin of the ball that hit him, unless he happened to be spying the tree with a glass when the shot was made, and felt the impact a about a second later..., especially as several men were trying to hit him.

As for the yardage, these older accounts are normally paced off or even estimated..., which doesn't take into account errors due to uneven ground, so he might have shot at closer to 250 yards, or more than 300, we can't really know. So a great shot but if the error meant the general was closer, the ball would have more energy than at 300 yards, no?

I do like the fact though that in the Murphy account, he took two shots and missed the general before he hit him. Plus, where the misses were said to pass the general or hit his saddle, is pretty close to where the general was hit on the third shot. So I think that lends credibility to the account. Plus General Arnold identified General Fraser on the field to General Morgan, and it was Morgan who directed Murphy to fire on a specific man, Fraser. That too seems to lend credability for it might be tough to identify a specific officer as General Fraser at 300 yards..., but he was identified by Arnold who was mounted, and probably rode over to the riflemen who were at a long distance from the British lines. So it's not like the account has Murphy in a tree spotting Fraser and taking him out. Fraser was identified on the field, and the word was passed to Murphy, allowing him to know which officer in red was the target.

LD
 
do-able.....I have done alot in years past, aith alot of calibers, and even a 22 at 300yds is scary.....
human flesh is thin, and weak!
 
I'm sure most of you gentlemen have seen this, it's one of my favorite quotes from the American Revolution...This is from British General George Hanger...It speaks not only of the accuracy of the American Long Rifle but also it's power...At 400 yards a round ball will still kill a horse...


I never in my life saw better rifles (or men who shot better) than those made in America; they are chiefly made in Lancaster, and two or three neighboring towns in that vicinity, in Pennsylvania. The barrels weigh about six pounds two or three ounces, and carry a ball no larger than thirty-six to the pound; at least I never saw one of the larger caliber, and I have seen many hundreds and hundreds. I am not going to relate anything respecting the American war; but to mention one instance, as a proof of most excellent skill of an American rifleman. If any man shew me an instance of better shooting, I will stand corrected.
Colonel, now General Tartleton, and myself, were standing a few yards out of a wood, observing the situation of a part of the enemy which we intended to attack. There was a rivulet in the enemy's front, and a mill on it, to which we stood directly with our horses' heads fronting, observing their motions. It was an absolute plain field between us and the mill; not so much as a single bush on it. Our orderly-bugle stood behind us, about 3 yards, but with his horse's side to our horses' tails. A rifleman passed over the mill-dam, evidently observing two officers, and laid himself down on his belly; for, in such positions, they always lie, to take a good shot at a long distance. He took a deliberate and cool shot at my friend, at me, and the bugle-horn man. (I have passed several times over this ground, and ever observed it with the greatest attention; and I can positively assert that the distance he fired from, at us, was full four hundred yards.)
Now, observe how well this fellow shot. It was in the month of August, and not a breath of wind was stirring. Colonel Tartleton's horse and mine, I am certain, were not anything like two feet apart; for we were in close consultation, how we should attack with our troops, which laid 300 yards in the wood, and could not be perceived by the enemy. A rifle-ball passed between him and me; looking directly to the mill, I observed the flash of the powder. I said to my friend, "I think we had better move, or we shall have two or three of these gentlemen, shortly, amusing themselves at our expence. The words were hardly out of my mouth, when the bugle horn man, behind us, and directly central, jumped off his horse, and said, "Sir, my horse is shot." The horse staggered, fell down, and died. He was shot directly behind the foreleg, near to the heart, at least where the great blood-vessels lie, which lead to the heart. He took the saddle and bridle off, went into the woods, and got another horse. We had a number of spare horses, led by ***** lads.
 
And that was with essentially a .50 caliber ball.

Good quotation. Can you please tell me where that came from?

Spence
 
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