Re-facing a frizzen

[The Baron]

The frizzen face on my Dixie Tennessee rifle is pretty gouged up and not sparking too well. I'd like to re-face / harden the frizzen, just not sure if this will work with the Japanese steel as I've got no idea how "soft" it may be, or the carbon content. There are some YouTube videos showing to heat the frizzen cherry red with a torch and press the face into a carbon infusing compound (cherry Red, or others). "They" claim doing this a few times will re-harden the face.

Is it really that easy? I don't want to harden the entire frizzen and have it break. Any suggestions?

 

[MSW]

there are several solutions to your problem. if you reharden the entire frizzen, there is (at least in theory) a risk of cracking the part. if you apply any of the hardening compounds, there is also a risk of damage. you might want to consider a bit of silver solder and a hunk of hacksaw blade (shaped to fit the curve of the frizzen) - I have never tried this, but it is said to work well.

if it were my call, I'd go with a re-harden the face compound.

you should probably look into having a spare frizzen if you're not in a position to have the rifle "down" for however long it would take to get a replacement. this way, you have a spare in the unlikely event that any of these methods does damage the original.

probably something of an extravagance, but then again, people squander their money on idiotic junk all the time ... groceries, mortgage payments and that sort of silliness ...

 

[Larry Akers]

A casehardening compound will form a thin, hard case on the surface of the part exposed to the compound. Depth of the case will vary with length of time exposed at temperature. The good thing about case hardening "mild" steel is it doesn't harden all the way through--there's not enough carbon in it to harden. You may have to anneal after hardening because the case may be too hard to spark.
Another option is to sole the face of the frizzen with a piece of high-carbon steel. I use pieces of old saw blades soldered with Brownell's Force 44 solder. The temper of a sawblade is about perfect for sparking and the solder melts at a temperature that won't affect the temper. I have yet to have a soled frizzen done this way come apart.

 

[ZUG]

LJA has it correct - his info is "spot-on" :bow: .
If it were mine I go with the case hardening compound. It is less trouble and can be re-done as needed when the case hardening has been worn away by many strikes of the flint. If you are good at soldering then the re-sole of the frizzen will last a LOT longer BUT you run the risk of removing the hardness of the sole material if you apply too much heat. Give the case hardening compound the first try and if you don't like it then give the re-sole method a try :v .

 

[Black Hand]

Personally, I would reface or have someone quench & temper the original. Case-hardening will not be a long-term solution and will need to be re-done on a regular basis as you will wear through the hardened layer relatively quickly.

Ultimately, the most straight-foward solution would be to replace the frizzen with a new one properly hardened - IF the new frizzen is made from good steel....

 

[Crewdawg445]

Black Hand is spot on, you'll were through the hardened layer way to fast depending on how much you shoot.

Also spot on with the replacement. I've reworked a few frizzens and personally dislike doing so for the above mentioned on unknown steel quality.

In short, I'd get a new one, or possibly look into L&R making you one for the lock. Depending on the price, have you thought about the possibility of just upgrading the entire lock?

 

[44-henry]

Some people here are giving case hardening a bad rap. Case hardening if done properly will likely outlast the owner. The problem is too many people take a bit of Kasenite, or one of the other carburizing compounds, grab a propane torch and in a few minutes of work think that their frizzens should be good for years. In these instances the case will be very shallow and the part might not even get hard because the torch unless used properly does not get the part above the critical temperature range, and if this is acheived than rarely do they keep the part at heat long enough to get the carbon to absorb in the surface. Now if on the other hand the part is packed in athe same compound and heated in a furnace at 1500-1600 degrees for a few hours and than properly quenched you will have a very deep case that will likely never wear through. It really boils down to time and temperature.

Of course if you are dealing with a high carbon frizzen to begin with carburizing is not necessary, but it wont hurt anything either and can prevent scaling and decarb while heating to the proper temperature. Depending on the alloy a short soak at temperature of 10-20 minutes is beneficial before quenching in oil such as canola preheated to around 130 degrees. Personally I find the idea of shoeing a frizzen a waste of time and aesthetically displeasing to boot.

 

[Black Hand]

A frizzen made of proper steel should not need case-hardening as the original heat treatment (if done well) will have hardened the material. When people get soft frizzens (as seems to happen with certain production flintlocks), my guess would be improper hardening or poor material choice when the part was manufactured. Either way, you get crappy sparks.

The nicest resoling I saw was with a piece of file shaped, soldered and riveted to the original frizzen. Aesthetically speaking, it was well-done and looked like it should be there...

 

[ZUG]

As stated by the OP "The frizzen face on my Dixie Tennessee rifle is pretty gouged up and not sparking too well." which indicates a softer than required frizzen to do the job properly. Dixie gun lock were known (to some back in the 60's & 70's) to be soft either by poor hardening or low carbon steel used. I stand by my original answer to the OP question:v . Also a hand held hardware store propane torch will not get and keep the necessary heat to do an adequate job of case hardening - my two cents use it as you wish :surrender: .

 

[Crewdawg445]

Some people here are giving case hardening a bad rap. Case hardening if done properly will likely outlast the owner. The problem is too many people take a bit of Kasenite, or one of the other carburizing compounds, grab a propane torch and in a few minutes of work think that their frizzens should be good for years.

Exactly, being I'm going to assume the OP has never done one before, this likely could happen.

I'm not going to disagree that properly case hardened pieces last, we know they do. However a frizzen shouldn't need it. Also, as he originally mentioned the face being heavily gouged, right there is a sign to wave the :surrender: for what the things worth, better options exist.

 

[nwtradegun]

to avoid the time and money on and old lock. get an l and r replacement lock.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Some people here are giving case hardening a bad rap. Case hardening if done properly will likely outlast the owner. The problem is too many people take a bit of Kasenite, or one of the other carburizing compounds, grab a propane torch and in a few minutes of work think that their frizzens should be good for years. In these instances the case will be very shallow and the part might not even get hard because the torch unless used properly does not get the part above the critical temperature range, and if this is acheived than rarely do they keep the part at heat long enough to get the carbon to absorb in the surface. Now if on the other hand the part is packed in athe same compound and heated in a furnace at 1500-1600 degrees for a few hours and than properly quenched you will have a very deep case that will likely never wear through. It really boils down to time and temperature.

Of course if you are dealing with a high carbon frizzen to begin with carburizing is not necessary, but it wont hurt anything either and can prevent scaling and decarb while heating to the proper temperature. Depending on the alloy a short soak at temperature of 10-20 minutes is beneficial before quenching in oil such as canola preheated to around 130 degrees. Personally I find the idea of shoeing a frizzen a waste of time and aesthetically displeasing to boot.

:thumbsup:

 

[Commodore Swab]

Nothing wrong with case hardening, when I have done it I haven't had a problem with any wearing out. Now if we were to talk compound IMO cherry red is junk and kasenit is no longer sold so that's the real problem.

 

[Vaino]

Why not resole the striking surface? Use either 1/32" or slightly thicker 1095 or 1075 spring steel, form it to the existing frizzen, harden it and soft solder it to the frizzen. The soldering heat will temper it to a suitable hardness. It's also possible to rivet the hardened and tempered sole onto the frizzen. Either way, you'll get many strikes and a lot of sparks......Fred

 

[jerrywh]

#1 if your frizzen was made of tool steel it wouldn't be gouged up like it is. So it isn't tool steel.
Case hardening compounds used on frizzens are for people who don't know how or don't have the proper equipment to harden one correctly and it doesn't last long.
You can face it using tix solder. Tix melts and flows at 275°.
If it were mine I would pack harden it.

 

[LRB]

I can't see how half soling is a waste of time. If it is aesthetically displeasing, then it wasn't done right. A well done half sole should not be noticed until closely inspected.

 

[rafterob]

I have a Dixie lock, made in Belgium. The frizzen wore out fairly quickly. I had it faced with a piece of band saw. Sparks like the dickens now, going on 5 years.

 

[jerrywh]

Remember if you half sole it the steel has to be hardened before you solder it on. The solder should not melt over about 350° or 400° or the steel will be too soft. The best solder in my opinion would be 60/40. It flows at 340°.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I can't see how half soling is a waste of time. If it is aesthetically displeasing, then it wasn't done right. A well done half sole should not be noticed until closely inspected.

:hatsoff:

BTW, a good 'solder' for this project is JB Weld.

 

[jerrywh]

Jacob Dickert never had JB weld but he always wished he did.