Real Hawken or not?

[Phil Coffins]

Try posting those pictures on this site, some very knowledgeable people there.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php

 

[warbike39]

Couple more pics

 

[warbike39]

Try posting those pictures on this site, some very knowledgeable people there.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php

Thank you Phil

 

[Albert53]

That appears to be an original Hawken that they made for the central states , I know of one in a collection around St.Louis that I handled a few years ago , you definitely have a rare gem .

 

[Scott Jones]

I tend to agree with the rifle built around an old Hawken barrel. Also, it appears that it may have been a flintlock barrel due to the fence behind the bolster. Sam did make flintlocks: one of Baird's book has a picture of one, probably made when Sam was in Ohio. However it has a script signature. Not everyone jumped on the few fangled caplocks right away, there was a considerable overlap, probably because some folks don't trust new technology or the problem with obtaining caps. Could spend a few hours rereading Baird's books, but reckon I'll leave it at that.

 

[Blaze]

Congratulations on your find. Did you buy any lottery tickets?
I'm happy for you sir!

 

[poker]

Great looking rifle! Phil gave you a good tip. I noticed a thread on ALR not too long ago about another hawken surfacing in New Mexico. There are several very knowledgable people that post on that site. You wont find a better resource.

 

[TDM]

You Sir, had a very lucky day when you found that rifle and accoutrements.

 

[warbike39]

Thanks Gentlemen, I knew it was something special almost 30 years ago when I found it. I've always been a big fan of Jeremiah Johnson and was lucky enough to see it on the big screen when I was a kid.
The rifle was wrapped in a very old quilt and buried under a foot of very old blown in insulation, that possibly helped preserve it. It also had a small wrap of old parchment paper on it that eventually turned to ash after I carefully stored it in a jar but I could read Hays Kansas on it.
Dave

 

[Notchy Bob]

From the pictures, it looks real to me. I noted the fence behind the bolster, too, as mentioned by @Scott Jones . I’m wondering if the barrel might have been cut off at the breech, re-breeched and moved back in the stock. Old-time percussion caps were very corrosive, not to mention the interior condition of the bore at the breech. It was not uncommon to cut the barrel and move it back, which may explain the odd breech.

It may have also been originally a full stock, and cut back to half stock. I would agree with @Grenadier1758 that it looks a lot like one of the light-weight rifles built by the Hawken shop primarily for the local St. Louis trade, but I have no doubt some of these traveled farther west.

The carving of the stock, especially around the lock moulding, is very neatly done. I would not be at all surprised if it is genuine. If it is a fake, it is a damn good one.

Are there any numbers stamped on the mould? Old-time moulds were generally marked according to the number of balls per pound. As examples, a .38 caliber mould might be marked “85,” meaning 85 balls cast from that mould would weigh one pound. A .40 caliber ball would be around 73 balls to the pound. The larger the ball, the fewer balls per pound of lead. Please check to see if the mould has any markings. If you have the original mould to fit that rifle, it would enhance the value even more.

You might look up The Hawken Shoppe out on the west coast. They have a website with contact information, and the proprietor is an expert. Also maybe send a private message to @plmeek , a member of this forum who is also an acknowledged expert.

Thank you for showing your rifle to us! However, please be careful. Genuine Hawkens are quite valuable.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Eterry]

My mentor loaned me 2 books on Hawken rifles by the same author about 12 years ago.
IIRC the name on the barrel gives many clues as to the time frame.
I think... but aren't certain, the book spoke of barrels bought from different vendors, at different times.
I'll see if I can borrow them again.

 

[warbike39]

From the pictures, it looks real to me. I noted the fence behind the bolster, too, as mentioned by @Scott Jones . I’m wondering if the barrel might have been cut off at the breech, re-breeched and moved back in the stock. Old-time percussion caps were very corrosive, not to mention the interior condition of the bore at the breech. It was not uncommon to cut the barrel and move it back, which may explain the odd breech.

It may have also been originally a full stock, and cut back to half stock. I would agree with @Grenadier1758 that it looks a lot like one of the light-weight rifles built by the Hawken shop primarily for the local St. Louis trade, but I have no doubt some of these traveled farther west.

The carving of the stock, especially around the lock moulding, is very neatly done. I would not be at all surprised if it is genuine. If it is a fake, it is a damn good one.

Are there any numbers stamped on the mould? Old-time moulds were generally marked according to the number of balls per pound. As examples, a .38 caliber mould might be marked “85,” meaning 85 balls cast from that mould would weigh one pound. A .40 caliber ball would be around 73 balls to the pound. The larger the ball, the fewer balls per pound of lead. Please check to see if the mould has any markings. If you have the original mould to fit that rifle, it would enhance the value even more.

You might look up The Hawken Shoppe out on the west coast. They have a website with contact information, and the proprietor is an expert. Also maybe send a private message to @plmeek , a member of this forum who is also an acknowledged expert.

Thank you for showing your rifle to us! However, please be careful. Genuine Hawkens are quite valuable.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Thanks for all the info Bob. I did send Greg at the Hawken shop a bunch of pics and a phone call but never heard back. Hope all is well with him. I just looked at pics of the plier mold device and it has the number 95 on it.

 

[warbike39]

The spoon appears to have been for pouring lead and the council handle for heat issues?

 

[Notchy Bob]

Thanks for the additional photos! I would agree with everything you surmised about the spoon or ladle. I have read original accounts of frontier blacksmiths making lead ladles (in Washington Irving) and of using an old spoon as a ladle (John Kirk Townsend). The survival rate of these simple tools is very low, and you are very lucky to have that one.

I don't have a gauge chart in front of me at the moment, but I would estimate 95 balls to the pound would equate to about a .35 or .36 caliber.

If you have full sets of fractional and letter-gauge drill bits with full-sized shanks, you can use the smooth, un-fluted shanks of these as plug gauges to get an approximate measure of your bore, up to .50 caliber. Bits larger than a half-inch usually have reduced-diameter shanks. Very carefully insert the smooth end of each bit in your muzzle until you find the one that is closest to bore size.

I understand the barrel is stamped, "S. HAWKEN ST. LOUIS." Is that correct? Are there any identifying marks or names on the lockplate? Even if the rifle is genuine, the lock may have come from an eastern factory. Just as rifle builders today generally buy their locks readymade, many old-time gunsmiths did the same.

Whether your rifle is a genuine Hawken or not, it is a very nice piece of work by a master builder. From what I can see in the photos, it has very clean lines and considerable "grace," for lack of a better word. It is a beauty, and the accoutrements found with it make it even better.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[HighUintas]

Id say it is authentic.

The breech is interesting.
If you look really closely at the picture of the barrel tang, you can see on the right side at the breech where is appears the fence is part of the breech plug and tang.

It's certainly isn't a converted flintlock... Not enough holes on the forward if the lock plate.

But, the drum is odd. And the nosecap is odd. And it has a single barrel key. And the rear sight is pretty close to the breech.

I'm guessing that it used to be a full stock and was converted to half. Maybe had the barrel cut back... that'd explain the rear sight position. Either it was a flintlock and they swapped the lock to percussion but used a breech and drum that wouldn't require a ton of work to install (cheaper that way) or it was built that way with the drum and odd breech because it would have been cheaper.

Good find. I bet at least the barrel is authentic. Looks like there's plenty of corrosion around the breech that would suggest a lot of shooting a long time ago

 

[warbike39]

Thanks for the additional photos! I would agree with everything you surmised about the spoon or ladle. I have read original accounts of frontier blacksmiths making lead ladles (in Washington Irving) and of using an old spoon as a ladle (John Kirk Townsend). The survival rate of these simple tools is very low, and you are very lucky to have that one.

I don't have a gauge chart in front of me at the moment, but I would estimate 95 balls to the pound would equate to about a .35 or .36 caliber.

If you have full sets of fractional and letter-gauge drill bits with full-sized shanks, you can use the smooth, un-fluted shanks of these as plug gauges to get an approximate measure of your bore, up to .50 caliber. Bits larger than a half-inch usually have reduced-diameter shanks. Very carefully insert the smooth end of each bit in your muzzle until you find the one that is closest to bore size.

I understand the barrel is stamped, "S. HAWKEN ST. LOUIS." Is that correct? Are there any identifying marks or names on the lockplate? Even if the rifle is genuine, the lock may have come from an eastern factory. Just as rifle builders today generally buy their locks readymade, many old-time gunsmiths did the same.

Whether your rifle is a genuine Hawken or not, it is a very nice piece of work by a master builder. From what I can see in the photos, it has very clean lines and considerable "grace," for lack of a better word. It is a beauty, and the accoutrements found with it make it even better.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

I never knew to look for any markings on the lock. I measured the ramrod stick from the rifle, I didn't want to scratch the inside of the rifle trying to measure it. I will look again and attach some more pics I have. One photo shows a very small very old repair done right behind the lock. I never noticed it until i reviewed the photos. The part that comes down and contacts the primer is very worn and that end of the barrel has alot of patina from where something flashed. Almost like it was a flintlock originally.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I took another look at the photos in post #22. I think the "unfinished" horn may have been a "blowing horn," used for signaling and calling in the dogs. My vision is not great, but the inside of the cut end of the horn appears to be cupped like the mouthpiece of a brass instrument (bugle, trumpet, French horn...). If you agree, maybe try it and hear how it sounds!

Was there a finished powder horn, also? If it has already been shown, I missed it. I was engrossed in the rifle.

Notchy Bob

 

[HighUintas]

I never knew to look for any markings on the lock. I measured the ramrod stick from the rifle, I didn't want to scratch the inside of the rifle trying to measure it. I will look again and attach some more pics I have. One photo shows a very small very old repair done right behind the lock. I never noticed it until i reviewed the photos. The part that comes down and contacts the primer is very worn and that end of the barrel has alot of patina from where something flashed. Almost like it was a flintlock originally.

I think the fence redirected the cap and powder blast to that portion that looks scorched.

Is that black area between the fence and the tang burnt wood? If so, I take my comment back about the breech plug and fence being one piece. Can't really tell what the fence is connected to. Maybe soldered to the barrel or lock?

 

[warbike39]

I took another look at the photos in post #22. I think the "unfinished" horn may have been a "blowing horn," used for signaling and calling in the dogs. My vision is not great, but the inside of the cut end of the horn appears to be cupped like the mouthpiece of a brass instrument (bugle, trumpet, French horn...). If you agree, maybe try it and hear how it sounds!

Was there a finished powder horn, also? If it has already been shown, I missed it. I was engrossed in the rifle.

Notchy Bob

Wow I didn't even know of a blowing horn. I just took photos of the smaller horn. It seems to have a hardwood or bone stopper. An attached metal measuring device? It seems to be full of something part way so that the powder measurement is correct. It also has some kind of initials or carving as does the rifle on what appears to be pewter ir silver nose piece. Also I enclosed pics of the beautiful and very old brass ball holder. The patches seem to be cut from cloth like an old shirt.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Fantastic rifle and lost in time group of items.