REAL hunting Traditional BP handgun.

[Waterboyark]

As an avid handgun hunter and BP fancier I finally came home to seek a suitable "traditional" hunting handgun as a primary arm. The only "traditional" possibility I found available is the Pedersoli long barreled .54 Flintlock (Bounty). My feeling is the optional .54 "Kentucky" is too lightly built. I may have to aquire one for inspection. While a .50 and RB may be adequate for deer I'd not fancy shooting a Hog with one. I did shoot a small hog (#150+) with a Ruger C&B using 270 gr. conicals at 900 fps. Not overly impressed. Maybe a .50 and hefty bullet?

I may even have to just build it myself! I can do it. Ideally a 9-12" heavy barreled rig of .58-62 caliber, rifled, 1-1/8" octagon barrel. Flinter would be fun. Dense walnut stock with a traditional grip shape to keep the frizzen out of my face under recoil. I want a 300+ gr. bullet at around 1100 fps.

I tested my Lyman's Plains .54 pistol with RB to over 1200 fps and found it adequate. But the ball is a teeny bit too light for me to have full confidence in deep penetration. Switching to 425 gr. bullets I bowed out at about 900 fps. The grip is horrible and the hammer was getting close to me. Trigger guard was a real pain. A possibility in reserve.

Perhaps I finally have found a shooting realm to explore where few have tread. Although probably for a good reason. lol

Any discussion would be welcome and very fun, I'm easy, and learn something profitable each day.

 

[Many Klatch]

It looks like you are looking for pistols that will stop PO'd Tigers or Bears. The Howdah pistols would do that. The originals were up to 4bore with huge charges. The barrels were often smooth bored. With a 100 grains of powder they killed at both ends, but they would stop anything that was coming at you with serious intent.

I'm not sure the Jap Tower pistols would be my choice, the barrels may have been OK but everything else was junk.

If you are going to build a pistol with maximum stopping power I recommend a 72 caliber horse pistol with a heavy octagon barrel. If your wrist can stand it the gun ought to be able to handle any charge you can stick down it.

Me, I'll stick with my Remington 44's with 25 to 35 grains of 3F.

Many Klatch

 

[rafterob]

Most previous discussions on this topic lean towards the Lyman Great plains pistol in .54 cal. A Fully loaded Remington .44 might come in second. Make sure your local laws allow it. Here in NC BP pistols are not allowed for hunting.

 

[Robert Egler]

Most previous discussions on this topic lean towards the Lyman Great plains pistol in .54 cal. A Fully loaded Remington .44 might come in second. Make sure your local laws allow it. Here in NC BP pistols are not allowed for hunting.

Muzzleloading pistols will be legal for the 2013-2014 season in NC.

Technically, the prohibition was not against black powder, it was against 'muzzleloading' pistols; you could use black powder in cartridges. Cap and ball pistols were a gray area, heard both 'yes you can use them' and 'no you can't' from Wildlife officers. They will now be legal.

 

[nkbj]

If you do build one for yourself consider the trade offs of recoil versus a reasonably handling pistol. Saw handled dueling pistols are greatly ignored as a source of design suggestions. The grip designs and the tapered barrels make for nice handling, nice balance, good shooting.

 

[Waterboyark]

Yes it is a great traditional looking hunting tool with lots of possibilities. A brace of them would be very tantalizing. The grip was certainly never intended to handle hotted up hunting loads. It might serve as a springboard for a self made improved version! In prep. for much hotter hunting loads and testing I fully glass bedded the barrel and tank so full contact exists and the wood is spared some stress.

Shooting 30 grs. (700+ fps) and a round ball is wonderful fun as it was intended by the maker. I needed some platform to construct a serious hunter for real world hunting.

This was RB (1100 fps)and 425 gr. conical (900 fps) impacting a 55 gal. drum of sand where I catch my bullets for re-use. Funny, I centered a skyscreen support really clobbering the chrono to no serious ill effect.

I feel a serious hunting frontloader needs at least .54 cal., 9'+ barrel (as per AR rules), and weight of 4-4.5 lbs. about right for recoil. This is for Hogs and game a bit larger than deer. Maybe Cow Elk etc. Strickly in my view.

 

[George T.]

You know what? If that will not do the job you need a Big Rifle! Shot placement is of course key with any black powder weapon with limited ballistic shock! Geo. T.

 

[don hepler]

I've always wanted to build a hunting pistol, and I'll share my ideas on it. I would scale up the stock to look like a TC Patriot, but make it out of maple, as I think the reason Patriots cracked was due to straighter walnut grain. I think the saw handle design of the Patriot looks better than a Kentucy, and would absorb the recoil much better. I would want it to have at least 54 cal. and much larger than a Patriot. A big Siler lock, and Davis trigger. I'd have to research the twist before I decided. There is a Youtube video of a dude with a large pistol custom made for deer hunting, and it shows him shooting a doe. I've watched it several times, and I could see myself with something like it. I've taken lots of game, including deer with handguns.

Go for it, build one.

 

[Waterboyark]

Ditto!

This is an interesting stock design. The trigger guard, while elegant and serviceable on a target arm, would keel you! Still it may have potential.

I really like your idea of an upscaled Patriot. Double set triggers would really aid precision shooting.

 

[Dphar]

As an avid handgun hunter and BP fancier I finally came home to seek a suitable "traditional" hunting handgun as a primary arm. The only "traditional" possibility I found available is the Pedersoli long barreled .54 Flintlock (Bounty). My feeling is the optional .54 "Kentucky" is too lightly built. I may have to aquire one for inspection. While a .50 and RB may be adequate for deer I'd not fancy shooting a Hog with one. I did shoot a small hog (#150+) with a Ruger C&B using 270 gr. conicals at 900 fps. Not overly impressed. Maybe a .50 and hefty bullet?

I may even have to just build it myself! I can do it. Ideally a 9-12" heavy barreled rig of .58-62 caliber, rifled, 1-1/8" octagon barrel. Flinter would be fun. Dense walnut stock with a traditional grip shape to keep the frizzen out of my face under recoil. I want a 300+ gr. bullet at around 1100 fps.

I tested my Lyman's Plains .54 pistol with RB to over 1200 fps and found it adequate. But the ball is a teeny bit too light for me to have full confidence in deep penetration. Switching to 425 gr. bullets I bowed out at about 900 fps. The grip is horrible and the hammer was getting close to me. Trigger guard was a real pain. A possibility in reserve.

Perhaps I finally have found a shooting realm to explore where few have tread. Although probably for a good reason. lol

Any discussion would be welcome and very fun, I'm easy, and learn something profitable each day.

When penetration was a factor back in the day hard lead was used. This for heavy game in Africa, India, Ceylon etc. Just like modern handgun hunters know a hard bullet is needed for penetration. James Forsythe used mercury the harden balls for his 69 caliber rifle. This rifle with a 137gr of powder would drive a hardened ball through an Indian Elephants head from side to side.
A 8" 58 caliber pistol with 60-70 grains of powder and a 570 rb is a pretty potent load though I have never shot anything with one. I have killed deer with a 50 and have some some live animal penetration testing. A 50 rb at 800 fps (45 gr FFF in a 6" barrel) will penetrate about 20" of mule deer buck including heavy muscles at the shoulder. A 54 or 58 will do better than this and a hardened ball will enhance that. But hardened lead is much easier to use if the barrel has narrow lands and wide grooves. A 62 will do better still with a 10-12" barrel but recoil will be a factor and the recoil will effect accuracy since its very difficult to control heavy recoil the same every shot and in pistols this problem is magnified.
I would not use conicals in a pistol on a bet. Even more chance of them moving off the powder than in a rifle.
If you need a conical, you need a breechloader.
Back in the day the round ball was the standard for heavy and dangerous game in Africa and Asia. This did not change until the advent of the breechloaders. They worked better than the conicals did from MLs since the conicals could not be hardened. The RBs superiority is mentioned by Sir Samuel Baker, Greener and James Fosythe. Both Baker's and Forsythe's writings are available for download on the WWW. "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles" by Forsythe is a classic. Both Baker and Forsythe were experienced hunters.
The RB is really a good projectile when used within its range and so long as its of adequate weight for the game being hunted. But the modern gun writers and the people that make and sell conicals tell a different story. Both have a financial stake in the game... Most "modern" gun writers are pretty ignorant as to traditional rifles and projectiles, their use and effectiveness.
John Taylor used a 10 bore percussion smoothbore in the 1930s to kill 13 African Elephant "good bulls" and several rhino using hardened balls and 167 gr of blackpowder. His account is in "Pondoro" in the Elephant chapter.
I often wonder how if a .76+- caliber RB (about 660 gr) can kill a 10000 pound African Elephant people can doubt that a .54 caliber ball (220 gr.) will kill something weighing less than 10% of the Elephant.

Bear pistols used to be used in the east to kill bears bayed by dogs. Some were only 40 caliber or so... One of 40-42 caliber was reportedly used to kill something like 200 bears over its career. These were usually long barreled 12-14". This discussion came up during our Historical Gun Maker's Guild fair. We have a member from Kentucky and he brought a bear pistol out for display and we had a conversation about them and their use.

Dan

 

[F.G. Ford]

To Dan & Waterboy,
Great information.
I have to admit, the most dangerous game that I have ever hunted with a hand gun is grouse, groundhog, and squirrel.
However, probably the most powerful BP handguns would be the Lyman .54 Plains Pistol, the double barreled Howda ( spelling?) and lastly the .58 cal. Zoli Zouave ( spelling?) pistol.
I've had a Zoli for years, it shot well with round ball, but was dangerous with minie ball, as the projectile would creep up the barrel if not pointed upwards.
It makes no difference what gun you shoot, if you shoot that hog in the hind quarters, you are going to have a problem.
A .45 cal. behind the ear, stops the dance!
If you are looking for a .500 nitro express, get one, but it won't be Black Powder.
That .58 Cal. Zoli is the most powerful black powder handgun you will find.
Fred

 

[Waterboyark]

Very good information, I'm appreciative. I do know of the hardened balls and have those books you mention. I'm hesitant to mess with anything but pure lead as my past experiments have shown very hard loading and finicky accuracy as was touched on. A bigger RB is very interesting! Still testing smoothies of .62-.75 but I just don't think the speed is there. 1000 fps is about tops so far in the long gun, handgun lengths 800. Rifling instantly jumps performance dramatically to the 1200 fps range if you can stand it.

My fun and easy quarry is the wild Hog, preferred with lots of Russian in it. They are considerably tougher than a deer which I find comparatively soft and easy to blow holes into. Although they do run off sometimes, and are difficult to find! Sika and other exotics are a bit more tough and the one Red Stag I took with handgun (modern firearm using all my tricks) was exceedingly tough despite being well anchored. I have taken one Bison with handgun and would really ponder on bullet placement considering a large RB and BP. What some historic person did is neat but when you are standing there, gun in hand and a guy watching you, waiting for his $2,000 fee, it is a very different prospect. An interesting experience but not as sporting as I would normally enjoy. But glad I experienced it (with a modern .51 cal. revolver, 410 gr. bullet at 1100 fps). I learned volumes and have even more respect for this great animal.

I think I will explore the larger caliber RB handgun (custom made). I do like RB and patches and the ease of obtaining good accuracy. I just need a good sized one (bigger than .535"). The .58 handguns of factory manufacture are almost too cheap and easy, not to explore.

 

[rafterob]

Good to hear, yes the terminology is "muzzleloading pistols" I called a couple years ago to talk to a warden and he told me that no, my remmie was not allowed. Probably depended on who you talked to because the wording is certainly vague.

 

[Shifty]

Dan the Bear Pistol info was good, I live in East Tenn and pistols with long barrels have been popular around here for yrs ,even old 22 rifles were cut down to carry Coon hunting and such. I have a 50cal percussion with a 16" barrel that I made ,I have never hunted with it yet just been playing with it for a few yrs it has a 1-48" twist barrel and it or I can shoot 3 1/2" groups off a shooting stick a 50yds,I shot it at 5-one gallon juggs filled with water at 50yds and it blew through all 5 with a PRB so I may be wrong but I think it would take a deer at up to 30yds anyway,it is a Kentuc style stock and recoil is less than my 44 mag Super Black Hawk.But I would like to have 54 or 58 like it also.

 

[blackdog of vt]

I'm in the process of building three hunting pistols with ten inch barrels. I'll let you know how they do. I've only hunted with a Ruger 480 so I'm interested in comparing the two.

 

[Shifty]

Hey I would like to hear more about these pistols,you know cal twist stock style.

 

[blackdog of vt]

They are just generic Kentucky style pattern, rayl 7/8 45 cal, 1-22 twist.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

don't rule out a smoothbore.
my entry into mzzlers was a cva 50 cal c&b which I still have although now it's a .62 smoothy after I bored it out from .50 due to forgetting to clean it well.
several times on camping trips I've taken small game/birds with #6 shot loads. patttern opens up a good deal after around 30' but it's still adequate.
.62 prb has some punch to it also. again max practical range is around 30 or so '

 

[M. De Land]

Here's my .54 caliber hunting/horse pistol.The barrel was originally 1 1/8 across flats but I milled it down to 1 inch side to side for this pistol. It shoots balls very well to the 50 yards tested. I never have shot conicals in it. The rear sight is a large aperture peep and is probably one of the reasons it is so accurate. The twist is slow as it is piece of rifle barrel but a ball doesn't need much spin to be accurate.
It weighs a bit over 4 pounds as I remember and the barrel is a slightly over 9 inches long.
All the brass furniture was milled out and then file shaped.
The grip has a steel rod running the length of it so stock will not crack.

Looking through the rear aperture:

 

[M. De Land]

The front sight is made of bar stock milled in one piece, dovetailed into the barrel and the rear sight is a TC with a aperture soldered into the notch,simple but effective. The lock is small rifle I picked up somewhere. In actuality is it a composite gun made of extra pieces, parts and metal left over from a mix of guns that I found laying around my shop.The stock was a walnut plank picked up somewhere.
It's kind of fun to just see what you can make from what's available. I don't think I bought a single specific part for this gun for the actual build. MD