recommend a beginners rifle

[Greg Baker]

First time here, very nice forums.

Considering a muzzleloader for hunting. Would prefer a side-hammer or flintlock for two reasons: an inclination toward the "old ways" (I hunt with selfbows also), and because one large WMA I hunt is primitive weapons only, bows & muzzleloaders (no inlines or scopes).

Quite frankly, I don't have much $$$ to spend, so please consider that in your recommendations. Also, the rifle will be used mostly for deer & smaller game, though there is a very, very slim chance for an elk hunt (Kentucky elk lottery).

Thanks,
Greg

 

[Charles/NM]

I started with, still have, a T/C .50 caliber Hawken. If I were to start today I would get a Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .50 or .54 caliber.

 

[murph]

Greg, i have a real nice t/c 50cal hawken for sale in exellent condition.i have two and only need[url] one.In[/url] my opinion t/c makes the best bp rifle out there. The lymans are good dont get me wrong but the thompsons are made in the u.s. and there customer service is legendery.Im asking $280 shipped for mine with extras.Let me know i'll send pictures include your e-mail thanks,murf :front:

 

[jim gray]

If you are looking for a rifle on a budget, I think you would do well with either the Lyman Trade Rifle or the Cabela's Hawken. In my opinion they are the best buys you'll find. I think that the LTR in percussion would be great for a beginner, but if you know someone who can help coach you through the initial learning curve (and there are a lot of people here who are willing to share their knowledge), a flintlock wouldn't be a too great a challenge.

If you have a little more money available and really want a quality American made gun then T/C makes the best production guns you'll find and backs them up with the best warranty there is and all this will set you back less than $500 even after you throw in all of the supplies you'll need to get started.

If you do get a chance to hunt elk I think that you'll be better off with a .54 than a .50, but a lot of elk have fallen to .50's.

 

[Zonie]

Although there is no doubt that the Thompson Center and the Lyman Great Plains rifles are amoung the best factory rifles out there, they are in the $350+price catagory.

For someone who has not shot black powder, is on a limited budget and is considering elk, I think I would suggest one of the less expensive rifles for a "first Muzzleloader".
The prices I'm giving are from Dixie, and as is usual with Dixies prices, they can be beaten by other suppliers.

Among the guns that come to mind are:
CVA St. Louis Hawken, .54 caliber precussion. $195
CVA Mountain Hunter, .50 caliber precussion. $225
Lyman Trade Rifle, .54 caliber precussion. $290
Lyman Trade Rifle, .54 caliber flint*. $312
Traditions Hawken Rifle Kit, .54 caliber precussion. $195

Other companies have several other Traditions rifles which are not kits and are in this price range.

None of these guns are what I would consider as high quality. They are basic, reliable guns which are suited for hunting and informal target work. They can give very good accuracy with the right load.

After you buy one, I bet you will someday want a better quality gun, but until you can afford one, these guns will do just fine.

The * by the flintlock above is because I would recommend you buy a precussion gun first.
Flintlocks are a breed unto themselves and while they are great fun, I think just learning the basics with the simpler, more reliable precussion caplock is best.

You might notice I tried to stay with the .54's where both .50 and .54 were offered.
The reason for this is the .54 is fully capable of bringing down an elk if the shot is in the chest. If deer are the largest game you are going to go after, the .50 caliber will be more than adaquate.

Don't be intimidated by the .54 caliber. Black Powder guns offer several things that make this a great size.

First, because it is a muzzleloader, you custom load each shot for what your wanting to do. A 60-70 grain load in a .54 gives about 1450 FPS velocity, and the round ball is about 230 grains. More than enough for deer, and the recoil is actually not bad at all.
Going up to a 110 grain load will push the velocity up to the 1900 FPS area and will take elk.

Second, Black powder does not kick like modern smokeless powder guns do.
Rather than the sharp, stabbing kick modern cartridges give, black powder, even in it's hottest loads is more like a giant rapid hard shove. Of course if you shoot the heavy slugs available, this shove can be somewhat unpleasent but with round balls, it is no problem at all.

Third, the .54s just seem to be inherently accurate. I'm not sure why, but my .54s always seem to group better than my .45s and .50s.

Speaking of round balls, they will kill just as effectivly IMO as any of the modern bullets if the range is inside 110 yards.
They also cost a LOT less, so you can shoot a lot more without going into debt. (Last I looked, a box of 100 .530 balls for a .54 caliber gun ran about $13 (Dixie price). Slugs on the other hand are in the $12 for 15 bullets price area.

Buy a muzzleloader. It is a enjoyable adventure into a world which is such great fun you may find all of your other guns gathering dust in your closet.

 

[JackAubrey]

Hello Greg,Welcome to one of the finest blackpowder forums on the web.I started out building a Cabele's Hawken .50 calibre percussion gun.It was well made and @ the time (1993)cost $130.00.I believe you will have to add $100.00 to that now.It is made by investarms who make the Lyman Great Plains Rifle aswell.Having said that,you would do very well indeed to take Murf up on his offer for the T/C.Thompson Centre's are renown for their quality,that is a good price!If no,look to Zonie's advice.I have a CVA frontier carbine .50 cal. flintlock and it was rather inexpensive.Not quite the fit and finish of some of my other guns but it will most definately make meat.

 

[Rat]

When Zonie said "the more reliable percussion caplock" I think he meant that a cap-lock might be more reliable for a beginner...RIGHT Z?

:: ::

Don't make us come over and whoop you with a knotted cyber plow line, or throw our used flints at ya!!! Rebel will whack you with his rubber ducky. Oh wait, all you guys have rubber duckies.

:crackup: :blah: :crackup:

In the hands of an expert, or experienced flint shooter, it could be argued that a flintlock is MORE reliable than a percussion.

:hmm:

Whether you want to start out with flint, or go percussion first depends on your "attention to detail"...although all ML's demand "attention to detail", a flintlock demands a higher level, initially. Once mastered, it becomes "more simple" than a percussion gun, if that makes any sense. But yes, generally speaking, it might make more sense to start out with percussion, as most people do.

Rat

 

[SquirrelsaurusR]

...I would recommend you buy a precussion gun first. Flintlocks are a breed unto themselves and while they are great fun, I think just learning the basics with the simpler, more reliable precussion caplock is best.

Greg,
since you said you would also consider a flintlock, I'll offer another take on the above statement. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter which ignition type you start with, as long as it's the one you want. When I got into muzzleloaders, I had no one to teach me how to shoot. My first rifle was a flintlock. I mean my very first, before I even owned a centerfire or rimfire. I also didn't have a computer, so I didn't have access to websites like this one to get help from others.

I taught myself by reading books. I read some beginner's books to learn about the sport before I spent my money, and I knew from my reading that a flintlock was for me. So that's what I bought and I never looked back. I later bought a caplock just to try it, but it just wasn't as much fun, so I sold it.

The point is that you should get what you want, regardless of what most people start out with. If your heart is set on a caplock, that's what you should get. But if you really want a flintlock, don't let being new scare you away from buying one. As long as you get one that's at least decent quality (Lyman or better. Stay away from the Spanish-made ones), you won't have any problem learning on a flintlock with a little book reading and all the help that's available on this forum.

My rifles may not be completely PC, and my clothing isn't PC, but you could say the way I learned to shoot was very PC. Remember, until the 1800's, no one started out with a percussion gun.

That's :m2c:

 

[dispatch 510]

First off welcome to this addicting hobby, I would start out with Sam Fadalas book on muzzleloading.A very good source of info,2nd if you are just starting out[I will catch a lot of flax on this next statement]Go to wally world and buy you a cva bobcat 50 cal 1-48 twist,syn stock weighs about 6 pounds.I have one that i bought used worked a load up of 70 grains of t-7 with prb,shots 2 inch 5 shot groups at 50 yds off the bench.It is a little barrel heavy i but some weight in the butt stock to even it out.I left the stock sights on mine,but have considered putting on some fiber optics on it.I carry this rifle if i am gouing to do a lot of walking,it is alot lighter than my t/c new englander.Good luck and happy hunting. :imo:

 

[roundball]

When Zonie said "the more reliable percussion caplock" I think he meant that a cap-lock might be more reliable for a beginner...RIGHT Z?

:: ::

Don't make us come over and whoop you with a knotted cyber plow line, or throw our used flints at ya!!! Rebel will whack you with his rubber ducky. Oh wait, all you guys have rubber duckies.

:crackup: :blah: :crackup:

In the hands of an expert, or experienced flint shooter, it could be argued that a flintlock is MORE reliable than a percussion.

:hmm:

Whether you want to start out with flint, or go percussion first depends on your "attention to detail"...although all ML's demand "attention to detail", a flintlock demands a higher level, initially. Once mastered, it becomes "more simple" than a percussion gun, if that makes any sense. But yes, generally speaking, it might make more sense to start out with percussion, as most people do.

Rat

I started out with percussions then switched to flint...IMO opinion they're both good and I would agree there would be more for the first time BP user to deal with if starting out with a flintlocks but it certainly could be learned and done.

To me, a big benefit to starting with percussions before switching to flintlocks is that a person gets a good frame of reference so they'll immediately realize how much better flintlocks are compared to percussions...otherwise a person would never know
:crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

[Charles/NM]

Greg,
When I said I would start out with a Lyman GPR I didn't mean to imply that I am in any way unhappy with my T/C Hawken. It's a great rifle. THe only problem I ever had with it was the sear arm breaking off. My rifle was made in the early 1970's and had an early unreinforced weaker sear. I bought a new stornger one from Dixie Gun Works for 12 bucks and it's worked perfect since. What I don't like about my Hawken is the shiny plastic-like finish and brass furniture. My wife thinks it looks pretty and is always on me to polish the brass. I stripped the factory finish off applied some darker stain and gave it a hand rubbed finish from a 30 year old Mongomery Wards stock finish kit I still had. Looks very nice and more traditional. That lack of traditional styling is what I am most unhappy with. I wish it had iron furniture and two barrel wedge pins. I find the brass furniture catches sunlight when I'm hunting. I'm going to make a brown cloth sleeve to cover the whole rifle for my next hunting foray. I also went thru the peep sight stage. Good for shooting at the range, not good for hunting in poor lighting conditions. Stock sights are back on.
One thing to keep in mind about opinions presented here (all good ones, BTW), is that there are regional preferences as to what style of rifle to get. I live in the south west Rocky Mountain area. I am aware of NO muzzle loader shooters who shoot flint lock rifles in this area. Apparently evryone feels that percussion rifles are more appropriate here. If I lived in Kentucky I would strongly consider a flint lock as they are more appropriate for your area of the country.

 

[Chrismico]

My first muzzleloader other than a few cap and ball pistols was an Investarms Hawken percussion cap type .50 caliber rifle. My dad saw it in a hardware store and the owner said he was selling some guns for a guy and that was the last one. My dad brought it to me and said if I liked it, the storeowner would take a hundred bucks for it. It had a browned barrel and we just thought it was old and rusted. I had never seen a browned barrel before.

The gun was made in the late

 

[roundball]

Greg,
When I said I would start out with a Lyman GPR I didn't mean to imply that I am in any way unhappy with my T/C Hawken. It's a great rifle. THe only problem I ever had with it was the sear arm breaking off. My rifle was made in the early 1970's and had an early unreinforced weaker sear. I bought a new stornger one from Dixie Gun Works for 12 bucks and it's worked perfect since. What I don't like about my Hawken is the shiny plastic-like finish and brass furniture. My wife thinks it looks pretty and is always on me to polish the brass. I stripped the factory finish off applied some darker stain and gave it a hand rubbed finish from a 30 year old Mongomery Wards stock finish kit I still had. Looks very nice and more traditional. That lack of traditional styling is what I am most unhappy with. I wish it had iron furniture and two barrel wedge pins. I find the brass furniture catches sunlight when I'm hunting. I'm going to make a brown cloth sleeve to cover the whole rifle for my next hunting foray. I also went thru the peep sight stage. Good for shooting at the range, not good for hunting in poor lighting conditions. Stock sights are back on.
One thing to keep in mind about opinions presented here (all good ones, BTW), is that there are regional preferences as to what style of rifle to get. I live in the south west Rocky Mountain area. I am aware of NO muzzle loader shooters who shoot flint lock rifles in this area. Apparently evryone feels that percussion rifles are more appropriate here. If I lived in Kentucky I would strongly consider a flint lock as they are more appropriate for your area of the country.

That's interesting worrying about the brass...I intentionally keep mine shining showroom ready...doesn't bother deer at all.

And just a reminder to anyone who may not know this:

TC firearms have a "Lifetime Warranty", regardless if the original owner or not...send anything back to them with an explanatory memo, and you'll get it fixed or replaced at no charge...parts, complete stock assemblies, locks, barrels, etc...dealt with them for over 15 years...still amazed at the lengths they go to for customer satisfaction...their warranty / service is really second to none

 

[Slamfire]

You have come to the right place, even though them obsene pan flashers have tried to hijack this thread. Here's a little somethin' a beginner could learn with without worryin' that his rifle would disappear in a cloud of rust.

TC Grey Hawk

They seem to have a lot of these available and the usual starting price is $200, they don't all get bid on. :front:

 

[fouserchris]

i have 3 percusion 50 cal. Ihave acva bobcat with fiberoptic sights. Ipaid 54.00 dollars at walmart for it without the sights.it groups under 2in at 100 yards.If you decide on this gun use black powder and change to a musket cap.I have not found abetter gun for 100 dollars .the fiberoptic sights andnipple were under 50 dollars.

 

[SquirrelsaurusR]

...even though them obsene pan flashers have tried to hijack this thread.

No hijacking involved at all. As the person seeking advice said in his original post:

Considering a muzzleloader for hunting. Would prefer a side-hammer or flintlock...

And that's why I replied:

...since you said you would also consider a flintlock...

Perhaps we need to go back and re-read the thread before throwing around accusations...? :hmm: :winking:

 

[Zonie]

Precussion or Flint?
I agree, a new buyer should buy what he wants, and I would be the last to argue against his/her decision, even if it is to buy an inline.

Although some of the RockLock shooters got their nose out of joint when I made mention of the More Reliable Precussion Lock gun, you should remember, Flintlock shooting gets into a persons blood just like black powder shooting does and sometimes blinds folks to the truth. :: :: ::

From the 1830s to the end of the Civil War when reliable cartridge guns came into existance, the Precussion Cap guns became popular, almost to the total extinction of the Flintlock. Thousands of Flintlocks were converted to Precussion. These folks didn't convert them so they would just have something different. They converted them for real reasons among which are:
Reliability in wet or windy conditions were big factors.

Speed of ignition, although a properly primed Flintlock with a good lock and a good flint can come close to the Caplock, the Caplock is faster.

Fewer parts to break (no frizzen or frizzen spring), and fewer needs, like knapping and adjusting the flint, picking the vent, wiping the flint,proper priming of the pan....

Just for the record, my first muzzleloader over 34 years ago was a Flintlock. In fact I currently own and shoot 7 of them.
Even with this background, or perhaps because of it, I will recommend precussion lock guns to beginners, every time.

 

[Charles/NM]

I knew T/C would fix the gun, it was just a lot easier to spend the $12 to get a small part rather than send the whole thing to T/C.
Mule deer I hunt are very spooky. I should say the mule deer bucks are spooky. You can almost walk up to some does. Bucks have been overhunted and are far and few between around here to the point that you have to enter a drawing to hunt them. Even then they have to have three points to be legal. It doesn't take anything to send them running. A glint off of brass hardware will definitely do it. I envy y'all who live in white tail country where there are lots of deer. You can on occasion run into a white tail or coes deer here, but not very often.

 

[bearbeater]

Hey
my first ML was and still is a tompson center renegade kit dun I paid less han 90 dollars and still have it and shoots 2inches with iron sihts at 100yds. I vote for a T/C
bearbeaer

 

[Slamfire]

Oh well I weren't bein' serious, just pokin' a little fun. :redface: