Reenacting a bayonet charge

[sherpadoug]

An incident came up at a Revwar event but I am interested to hear what other eras may say as well.
Say you have two ranks of troops in a narrow street. The street is too narrow to form one rank. When the order comes to fix bayonets and charge what should the second rank do? We kind of sauntered behind the first rank with our bayonets in the air and tried to look menacing. What practically, safely, theactrically and authentically can one do?
:thanks:

 

[Pork Chop]

Well, you could have the foreward rank charge while the second rank holds back to fire and clean up the ones that got by the onslaught... Just a though.

 

well in reality the command "fix bayonets!!!!" means all ranks within or under the command of the person giving it .
I tell you what even in practice I don

 

[2172]

In the spirit of always preparing for the last war, I was once in an infantry bn whose CO decided to have us use the dismounted drill manual to position ourselves in the edge of a wood ('forward, a column of files from the right.." that kind of stuff), fix bayonets and charge up a hill...the first rank went with bayonets extended to engage, subsequent ranks went at high port...since I was in the first rank, and not that fast on my feet, I was grateful for the high port..Hank

 

[mike alexandre]

As health and safety officer for our group, I would recommend that you do a risk assessment on it, ie is someone likely to get hurt,is there another way it can be done and still look good etc
First and foremost this is reenacting not war and its 2005 not 1805. Small cuts and bruises are one thing, someone tripping and stuffing a bayonet into the guy in front or themselves is not on - even if theres a chance its going to happen dont do it. The fact that its in the 1764 drill or what ever you are going by does not in my, or the insurance companies opinion mean we have to do it. Hope this helps

 

[Rebel]

Rubber bayonets? Or the bayonet frog installed on the bayonet? Anything to prevent an accidental injury or death.

 

[mike alexandre]

No not exactly. As a forinstance, we did a bayonet charge as a single line of 8 at a demo last year, it went very well and impressed the crowd. Only the next time we did it I got the Corp to stand at the side not in front of the fast approaching line???? Its common sense really.

 

[Tumblernotch]

We did a few bayonet charge demonstrations for living histories and actually one on the field back in '84, though there we didn't close with the opposing troops. Back in '74 we actually did some hand to hand with fixed bayonets, but it had to be carefully done. (This was Civil War.)

According to Hardee's Light Infantry Tactics (used in the CW), when the order "Charge bayonets" is given, the front rank holds their muskets with the side of the butt against the right hip and the muzzle slightly elevated and extended to the front. The rear rank assumes the position of "Right Shoulder Shift" which means the musket is against the right shoulder, lockplate up and almost level with the right ear and the barrel pointing nearly straight up. The heel of the right hand is against the side of the buttstock with the fingers curled over the buttplate. If you are facing a line in this position, it will appear that the barrels of the muskets are leaning to the line's left a little. When done correctly, it is very impressive to see and it keeps the bayonets of the rear rank out of the butts of the front rank. All Sergeants, and this includes all file closers, will remain at "Shoulder Arms".

Now, other CW manuals have different ways of doing these positions and I'm quite sure that earlier ones from the Rev.War and War of 1812 periods are different too. But this was what we used and it worked well. Like I said, this was Light Infantry. Gilham's Manual stressed Heavy Infantry and it probably is closer to what was used in the earlier Army.

If you can find a copy of von Steuben's manual, it may have what you're looking for.
:thumbsup:

 

[CrackStock]

Nothing against the post above, but I do Rev War and 1812, so Hardee is not familiar to me. Von St and Manual of 64 are.

The simple answer is that the front line goes forward with the bayonets charged (forward position) and the following lines hold their weapons upward. As losses take place, the rear men step forward into the gaps and only drop the muzzles to the charge position once into their places in the line.

Everyone must realize that there is no completely safe way to fake this activity and should act accordingly. It should be taken seriously. It is a scary feeling to know that deadly steel is following you. Movies sometimes use rubber bayonets, but many do not. Even then a musket muzzle can do serious injury without a bayonet. There should be a no contact understanding and a minimum distance determined in advance and maintained by all. Strict commands should be set for breaking the action in case of an injury or in order to prevent injury.

As to pics of Von Steuben's drill or Manual of 64, take a look at the DRILL section of:

http://www.2ndsc.org/frames.html

The man doing the demo is a friend who sustained a bayonet injury during the making of the most recent version of the Alamo. He got his scalp grazed and had to be stapled to keep working. It can happen.

CS

 

[Tumblernotch]

I just checked out your website. Very well done and informative! As you say, the rear rank troops keep their muskets muzzle up and fill in the front rank as needed. The file closers keep the ranks and files in order and if losses are great enough, take their places in the ranks as well.

It was very rare for us to do a bayonet charge with fixed bayonets, generally just as a demo and we stopped well short of contact with opposing troops. Even without bayonets, we rarely closed and even then, it was often choreographed. When it wasn't, usually somebody got a head laid open or more often, a hand cut or bruised. So, as you can see it didn't happen very often.

Since you can't realistically reenact the hand to hand part of a bayonet charge, I would just as well not attempt it anyway. It was very violent and in the real thing, the soldiers were more likely to use clubbed muskets than bayonets anyway. We can't reproduce it without getting a bunch of guys hurt and killed. Stunt men get paid to do this, and computer generation can reproduce these scenes for the movies. I've been to reenactments and watched cavalrymen do their sword fights and they are even more ridiculous to watch. If they get close enough to do it right, it is very dangerous. To do it safely, it's very goofy looking. I say it's better not to do it at all.

Although it got to where we didn't do the charges with fixed bayonets, we still had to do bayonet drill with fixed bayonets. The public liked it even if we didn't. We used McClellan's Drill and the commands were in French. Of course we Anglicised the words, in other words, butchered them to the chagrin of the drillmaster.

I'd say that it's best that these maneuvers not be done in a reenactment of any period for safety reasons. I figure most events don't allow them anyway. However, I believe that you can demo an advance with bayonets fixed (no running) for the public and bayonet drill will enhance the experience for the soldier if taught correctly.
:thumbsup: :grey:

 

[Stumpkiller]

A.) Everyone in the second rank instantly becomes a casualty and grabs their chest, taking just long enough to "die" to wobble into the shade or flop on their back beside a cute girl on the sidelines.

2.) Drop their guns and turn around and run.

iii.) Entire rank drops their bayonets, bump each other around trying to reach them, and spend the duration of the charge exchanging bayonets until they find the one that fits their musket properly.

 

[sherpadoug]

Thanks to all who replied.

I just got a new Bess a few weeks ago and I didn't have a bayonet that fit so I ordered a $29 one from track to have something. It arrived Thursday before the Saturday event, and it even fit (well...sort of)! I used that bayonet Saturday in the Revwar event at Marblehead more than I had ever used my the one on my old fusil. As safety officer for my unit I had never worried about bayonets before.

More grist for the cerebral mill.... :thanks:

 

[CrackStock]

I also have reservations about doing a bayonet charge. We often have just a single line fix bayonets and then go to the charge position as the audience watches from our side. It gets the point across...

Sorry, could not resist.

I think that this does create enough of the feeling without truly endangering anyone.

As to bayonets not being permitted, I have seen bayonets demonstrated at many events, but not often fixed and charged en masse or with multiple ranks. Done it at a few, but not often.

Then there is the contest where people try to skewer the swinging apple. I won the last one of these, which greatly aids in my memory of it!

As to movie making, you must remember that there is no real standard for safety there, so bring your own common sense and figure out when to pack and go home!

CS

 

[sherpadoug]

One safety rule I have inherited, though I can't justify it on my own, is to only use bayonets on UNLOADED guns.

There is apparently some old wive's tail of someone having powder grains lodge between the bayonet and barrel and when fired the resulting explosion launching the bayonet a considerable distance. That one I DO NOT believe! :youcrazy:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Saw an interesting "demonstration" once. The shooter of a Bess fired a live round with the bayonet attached. The bayonet dropped to the ground as the gun recoiled . . . with the lug still gripped in the retaining cut-out. :redface:

Apparantly all reproduction lugs are not soldered on equally.

I don't believe the one about the powder launched bayonet, either. :hmm: