Reloading and crud build up

[Problem Child]

I know to load your rifle with a clean barrel and mark your ramrod,but even if you swab after every shot,you're still pushing crud down the barrel everytime you load.
Should I still try to get all the way to my mark(on ramrod) everytime or should it be more of a feel thing when loading.
The reason I'm asking is,I've read that you don't want to compress your main charge too much when loading a Flintlock.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Read your patches to know what you are pushing in front of the jag and cleaning patch. That means, you have to stop and withdraw the patch at some points, and LOOK AT IT to see just how much Crud is on the patch.

I stop my first damp patch 1" above the breechplug of my flintlock, withdraw it, and use a Second Damp patch to go all the way down the face of the plug, so that the small surface at the front of the jag can soak up crud off the breech plug face.

As to compacting powder, There are two ways its done. Gravity, and pounding the rod on the PRB. With 3Fg powder in a PERCUSSION gun, compacted powder- by using gravity--- gives the most consistent velocity. However, a Flintlock IGNITES the powder in the bore DIFFERENTLY. It has to burn like a fuse, igniting one granule after another. Poking a hole in the main charge so that many granules can begin burning from the heat of your burning priming powder is the way to speed up the INTERNAL ignition of the main powder charge.

I recommend sliding the powder down a tilted barrel, rather than letting it "DROP" by holding the barrel vertically. And unless you are shooting a .40 cal. or smaller flintlock, you generally will get better ignition using 2Fg. Compacting the powder seems to slow ignition- not help it, in my flintlocks, so I don't do it anymore, nor do I recommend doing so.

Pounding a rod on a PRB simply distorts the ball, and I don't know anyone who can distort consecutive balls the same way, so that they get the kind of accuracy You get by gently seating that PRB down onto the powder. Load to a mark on your ramrod- and don't be pounding the ball or the powder to "compact it". The chronograph tells you this is all wrong. :shocked2:

Others have their own experiences, and recommendations. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[rmonday2]

As long as its within the "REFERENCE" mark at the end of the muzzle you will be in good shape. What "I" believe when loading is to apply the same amount of seating presure each time as close as one can. Consistance in procedure of loading will gain you familurality with the resistance it takes to repeat each time.
I say all that to say this, you shouldn't have to beat it down to that mark After the rifle is durty. If you shoot a 5 shot string it will become more difficult to load with each shot, BUT if you swab between each shot with one wet patch and one dry it will take consistant presure to seat the ball which in turn will give you best results in accuracy. This will repeat to your reference mark equaly time after time.
That mark you make is used to indicate the rifle has only "ONE" charge of powder in it and not more!!! As you play with different loads for one reason or another that mark will move up and down from the edzact muzzle face. Look at it as a SAFTY and use good judgment.Hope this helps and happy shooting!!

 

[ebiggs1]

I don't swab between shots and I 'firmly” seat the ball on the powder. I think that the “loose powder” is another one of the myths of flintlocks that hangs around. But still consistency is still King.

 

[CrackStock]

Marking your rod is more of a safety issue than a precision loading idea.

As to building up crud and shoving it down the bore, you can eliminate this by swabing between shots. Also, the less crud that you use in your bore, the less crud stays there. Try using a small spray of water for extended range sessions. If you need a lube, try the bare minimum.

At times, I use Dutch's dry lubed patches, plain water or Crisco soaked patches. But I take steps to make either of these work effectively.

Hunting or keeping a load for any period of time beyond a few minutes is another matter totally.

Look up the Mississippi ML club in MuzzleBlasts. Good shooters are there who can help you out. They shoot in Byrum on the 1st Sunday of the month. I say "they" because I have not yet joined - the membership meeting is the Saturday before the next match and I will be one of they after that date. You might try to come by someday.

CS

 

[Bill/Ms.]

Problem child has been to several of our matches at Byram. We had out first of the year this past Sunday. The next match is Sunday, March 6.
Be Well,
Bill Ridout

 

[Joel/Calgary]

The reason I'm asking is,I've read that you don't want to compress your main charge too much when loading a Flintlock.

That depends.... If you have a chambered breech, whether "patent" or not, one of the things the sub-caliber chamber does allow compression of the bulk of the main charge while leaving the powder relatively uncompressed down where ignition starts. On the other hand, if you have a plain breech, then compressing the main charge MAY affect the ignition - but different results have been reported, so it may depend on details of breech & touch-hole geometry and/or of loading technique. IIRC, Paul has worked mostly with plain-breeched barrels.

As with 97.38% of everything in this hobby of ours, Your Mileage May Vary, so it's best to do your own testing with YOUR firelock.

Regards,
Joel

 

[hanshi]

I seldom swab between shots, or at all, for that matter. A good lube goes a long way to consistent shooting.

 

[CrackStock]

Bill,

Good to see you here. You were one of the people who I had in mind when I wrote my post.

:hatsoff:

As to the last shoot, I was a couple of points west of you.(next to Walter) Just did not realize that you were here too. See you in a couple of weeks!

CS

 

[Bill/Ms.]

Okay- now I know who "Crackstock" is.
Bill

 

[Flint1]

I believe I also know Crack Stock. If I remember correctly you were living in Florence a few years ago and came to Charleston to shoot with the Charles Town Longrifles a few times?

 

[CrackStock]

Gee, I am busted all over. Gotta get relocated or something.

Yessir, I sure did shoot with the CTRs. Even got a pistol from John Mouzon which was a hoot to shoot, but it has been so long that I need a refresher course in how to clean it!

Glad to see ya here too.

What next? Bayou Muzzleloaders members here too?

(The only muzzleloaders from the islands were spearguns, but they don't do so well with black powder...)

Actually, it was John who preached the use of plain old water as a patch lube IIRC. (Carefully returning to the original topic) It worked pretty well for his little .36 cal pistols and I tried it in my .40 caplock with results almost as good. Been trying it in various guns since and during a session of target shooting it is one helpful option.

CS

 

[Bill/Ms.]

Tony: To answer your initial question. As long as you are close to your ramrod mark, you'll be okay. when I am shooting a match, I use soapy water in a spray bottle for a patch lube. In my .36 caliber I am using a .360 ball with .017 patching, so I am effectively wiping the bore when I load. Any crud in the barrel will be seated on the powder charge and ejected with the shot. With this loading procedure, I generally don't actually clean the barrel until I finish whichever target I'm shooting. I've never really thought about leaving the powder charge "loose", I just try to use consistant pressure on the loading rod each shot.
Be Well,
Bill Ridout

 

[Larry Pletcher]

The reason I'm asking is,I've read that you don't want to compress your main charge too much when loading a Flintlock.

That depends.... SNIPED....On the other hand, if you have a plain breech, then compressing the main charge MAY affect the ignition - but different results have been reported, so it may depend on details of breech & touch-hole geometry and/or of loading technique. .....As with 97.38% of everything in this hobby of ours, Your Mileage May Vary, so it's best to do your own testing with YOUR firelock.

Regards,
Joel

Problem Child,
As Joel mentions there is much that is unconfirmed regarding ths topic. In 2007 a friend and I did a compression experiment in which we increased compression in 1/16" increments with both flint and percussion ignitions. They both responded to increased compression with increased accuracy. Both results were remarkably close to each other. At that time we reported this in an article called "Load Compression and Accuracy" on my web site.

Steve and I have developed a methodology that will refine our numbers and plan another session to confirm our findings.

We plan another session where we will load and fire the rifle with NO oxygen in the barrel charge. This will be done by loading the barrel with an inert gas (probably argon) in the barrel. Our purpose is to determine if oxygen in between granules contributes to ignition. The answer to this test may help to decide if there is any reason to leave the powder uncompressed.

Personally I call this flint/compression claim a busted myth and load with firm, consistent pressure, but plan to retest this summer.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[David W.]

The reason I'm asking is,I've read that you don't want to compress your main charge too much when loading a Flintlock.

That depends.... SNIPED....On the other hand, if you have a plain breech, then compressing the main charge MAY affect the ignition - but different results have been reported, so it may depend on details of breech & touch-hole geometry and/or of loading technique. .....As with 97.38% of everything in this hobby of ours, Your Mileage May Vary, so it's best to do your own testing with YOUR firelock.

Regards,
Joel

Problem Child,
As Joel mentions there is much that is unconfirmed regarding ths topic. In 2007 a friend and I did a compression experiment in which we increased compression in 1/16" increments with both flint and percussion ignitions. They both responded to increased compression with increased accuracy. Both results were remarkably close to each other. At that time we reported this in an article called "Load Compression and Accuracy" on my web site.

Steve and I have developed a methodology that will refine our numbers and plan another session to confirm our findings.

We plan another session where we will load and fire the rifle with NO oxygen in the barrel charge. This will be done by loading the barrel with an inert gas (probably argon) in the barrel. Our purpose is to determine if oxygen in between granules contributes to ignition. The answer to this test may help to decide if there is any reason to leave the powder uncompressed.

Personally I call this flint/compression claim a busted myth and load with firm, consistent pressure, but plan to retest this summer.

Regards,
Pletch

I am looking forward to the test, but I think I can guess the outcome. I have unscientifically tested this myself with no chrono, no argon, no nitrogen. When I have smaller groups using a COMPRESSED flintlock load, that is what I will use until otherwise proven different.

I still contend that the amount of oxygen present between grains is so minute, that it could not possibly affect burning characteristics to any degree and it is in fact, the salt peter and of course, heat which causes the burn.

 

[CrackStock]

Larry,

I remember that this was the theory behind the Kadooty loading rod system. By maintaining a constant loading pressure, you would supposedly achieve a constant load. I always suspected that this was not as consistent as advertised.

This led to a volume theory. Long ago in another environment, we discussed the use of a stop collar specifically to ensure that the ball would be seated to the same depth with the only variable being the crud consuming some of the volume of the powder chamber.

Is this a possibility for future testing?

I am always willing to bite off more for you to chew!

:hatsoff:

YMHS,
CrackStock

 

[CrackStock]

Bill,

I was wondering what was in the magic bottle that made those balls fly so true! On course, it could have been the trigger actuator...

CS

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Larry,
This led to a volume theory. Long ago in another environment, we discussed the use of a stop collar specifically to ensure that the ball would be seated to the same depth with the only variable being the crud consuming some of the volume of the powder chamber.

Is this a possibility for future testing?

I am always willing to bite off more for you to chew!

:hatsoff:

YMHS,
CrackStock

CrackStock,
You have a good memory. The stop collar was the method we used on the 2007 tests. We did wipe between shots to eliminate the "creeping crud volume". We were very satisfied with the method, but realized that we could have used Redfield sights, weighed charges, culled balls, etc to refine the numbers. We largely accounted for those things by using the techniques that Steve used to set his national record. But for research purposes we need to specifically account for the methods. I expect similar results, but am always ready to learn something new.

Regards,
Pletch
PS still into varmint hunting?

 

[CrackStock]

I am a fan of the stop collar concept and tried to make a screw tension one work, but was never quite satisfied and got shipped overseas before making the idea pay. Now that I am back where BP is obtainable, I am again percolating on a method for making one succeed.

(Yes, the varmint business is always good -- there is an endless supply and the season runs year round!)

CS

 

[Problem Child]

Thanks guys.I shot the flinter today and tried something I usually do with my small caliber rifle.
Instead of wiping between shots,I used a fouling scraper about every third shot.I cleaned the breechplug with the scraper and then turned the muzzle down and bumped the crud out.BTW the crud would not light with a match.
By doing this,I loaded pretty close to the mark on the ramrod each time.

I also packed the powder down pretty good a few times just to see what would happen and I still had good ignition.