Repair rifling?

[Dude]

I know it's possible to sleeve a rifle barrel, but is there a way to repair a pistol barrel?

I have an 1860 Colt 44 with a pitted barrel. It's one of the collectible models, so replacing the barrel would greatly reduce value, but would possibly be a good solution as a shooter. The question then is whether anything available would fit.

But what I really need to know is whether a pitted barrel can be repaired?

I got this gun off of an auction site, found it was pitted worse than claimed, and am trying to decide whether to keep it or not.

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

You can have the barrel lined.
The liner should have a rifling groove dia identical with the diameter the pistol left the factory with.
If it is an Italian Colt 1860 replica the factory rifling groove dia would be .451", if it is a Belgian Centaure the rifling groove dia is .446".
Long Johns Wolf

 

[nkbj]

Just thinking out loud... how are the chambers?

 

[Dude]

Yes, it's a Centaure. Two or three of the chambers have pitting near where the ball seats. Most of the others are rusty or pitted farther in. This is the fully rebated cylinder, so can't imagine it could be sleeved. There's not much material there to work with.

The first third of the forcing cone is also pitted, along with the front face of the chambers. My guess is that this pitting was caused by the excessive gap at the cylinder/barrel interface.

The gun was, from what I can tell, put away without being cleaned and left that way till before the Gun Broker auction. The barrel was cleaned and photographed, but not the cylinder, which was left dirty.

The cylinder/barrel gap is .030" when they're mated up, without the wedge. With the wedge inserted, the barrel is pulled back, but at an angle. The gap at the top then measures .016" and the bottom is .024". What that means, is that the barrel is rotating around the lower fixed junction to the frame and not mated squarely to the cylinder.

To reduce the barrel/cylinder gap, the wedge was driven in deeper which then stressed the arbor. Now, when the barrel is installed, the two pieces (the frame and lower barrel support) don't want to mate up since the arbor holds the two pieces (frame/barrel) out of alignment.

With the excessive gap, the action didn't work as it should and would even jam sometimes - contrary to the description in the auction statement.

I've contacted the seller and he claims the gun was accurately described and the numerous photos showed everything I complain of. However there was no mention of the excessive gap, rust and pitting in the cylinder, how badly pitted the bore is, jamming when the action is cycled slowly, nor the poor fit of barrel to the frame. He's refusing to accept a return of the pistol. If I can't get him to change his mind, I'll then disclose the company and his name. We'll see if he does the right thing and takes the gun back.

In the meantime - I'd like to get an idea what it costs to reline the barrel and who you'd recommend.

 

[Pete G]

It is a replica. Cost to fix exceeds value.

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Regarding relining talk to Jared Baker of Longhunter in Amarillo, TX at [email protected].
If you need more specific information send PM.
Long Johns Wolf

 

[ZUG]

Here's what I think --- that gun has too many issues to fix and the seller knew it that's why he unloaded it. You should return it but it sounds like you will have a long up hill climb.

 

[No second place]

Unless it had sentimental value not worth fixing. Site manager should insist on allowing return. good luck. Caveat emptor x2 on auction sites...c

 

[Whitworth]

You got hosed, insist on refund, if not scream his name across all the boards.....

 

[Dude]

At first the seller declared the fotos showed everything I complained about, along with the description, so wouldn't take it back. I wrote him back quoting his description of the gun from the auction with data contrary to what was stated. Things like "the pistol was cared for and not abused." I replied that the cylinder still had black powder residue, so was obviously put away without cleaning. And from that observation, was probably the reason the bore is so rusty.

He relented, but says he won't refund shipping costs. I need to research this some more. I've heard Gun Broker buyer support is pretty crappy. Any advice would be welcome!

Even if I lose the shipping, it's still worth it to me to have it gone.

 

[ZUG]

Bite the proverbial bullet and send it back even if you have to pay shipping you will be miles ahead and rid of that ugly deal that went bad. Make sure he has to sign for it so he can't say that he never got it

 

[Dude]

ZUG - that's the plan -- send it back!! And definitely pay for a signature delivery! I do not trust him one bit.

 

[Bad Karma]

Yes, it's a Centaure. Two or three of the chambers have pitting near where the ball seats. Most of the others are rusty or pitted farther in. This is the fully rebated cylinder, so can't imagine it could be sleeved. There's not much material there to work with.

The first third of the forcing cone is also pitted, along with the front face of the chambers. My guess is that this pitting was caused by the excessive gap at the cylinder/barrel interface.

The gun was, from what I can tell, put away without being cleaned and left that way till before the Gun Broker auction. The barrel was cleaned and photographed, but not the cylinder, which was left dirty.

The cylinder/barrel gap is .030" when they're mated up, without the wedge. With the wedge inserted, the barrel is pulled back, but at an angle. The gap at the top then measures .016" and the bottom is .024". What that means, is that the barrel is rotating around the lower fixed junction to the frame and not mated squarely to the cylinder.

To reduce the barrel/cylinder gap, the wedge was driven in deeper which then stressed the arbor. Now, when the barrel is installed, the two pieces (the frame and lower barrel support) don't want to mate up since the arbor holds the two pieces (frame/barrel) out of alignment.

With the excessive gap, the action didn't work as it should and would even jam sometimes - contrary to the description in the auction statement.

I've contacted the seller and he claims the gun was accurately described and the numerous photos showed everything I complain of. However there was no mention of the excessive gap, rust and pitting in the cylinder, how badly pitted the bore is, jamming when the action is cycled slowly, nor the poor fit of barrel to the frame. He's refusing to accept a return of the pistol. If I can't get him to change his mind, I'll then disclose the company and his name. We'll see if he does the right thing and takes the gun back.

In the meantime - I'd like to get an idea what it costs to reline the barrel and who you'd recommend.

Bobby Hoyt can reline that barrel, you might post dimensions and photos of the cylinder and see if we can’t find a replacement cylinder which could be fitted. missed the part about sending it back. Did he relist the revolver on gunbroker? Any chance you could post pictures of the gun and serial number so someone else doesn’t have to go through the same thing again?

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

A Uberti cylinder can be fitted.
For details see Gunsmithing chapter of www.1960nma.org.
Long Johns Wolf

 

[Dude]

I guess I'll have to figure out how to post photos. I know, it's not hard, but part of the issue is this computer I'm using.

Ok - here are more details. The seller has agreed to take it back, but won't refund shipping either way. He's insulted that I questioned "his guy's" ability or integrity who inspects and photos the guns, and possibly wrote the description. Considering the few (less than 5%) negative feedback out of 65 in the last six months, it's possible this was just one of those that 'slipped by'.

I like the gun and would like to keep it if it can be repaired economically. It's an early Centaure (1963) with the shoulder stock. Those models came with the stock, which was stamped with the gun's serial number. In this case, the stock must have been damaged or lost because this one is missing the serial number. But it is a Belgian made stock with brass furniture.

It's got the full fluted cylinder.

Both the grips and stock need to be refinished, but the wood is in good shape. Cosmetically, it's in pretty good shape. The color case hardening is good, the rear grip frame is turning to brown, and there are some minor rust spots on the barrel.

The rest, you all know about. And no, I don't believe he's already re-listed it. At this point he's saying if I've tinkered with it, he's not taking it back.

I hadn't looked into the Gun Broker help area until this transaction, so have some data to pass on. GB's help is minimal, so don't expect much from that quarter. They have a return policy that offers a max of $500, but it's got a $100 deductible, making the max payout $400. What a joke. The best piece of advice is to pay with a credit card so the transaction can be cancelled.

I paid $750 for the gun with stock plus another 38 in shipping, and then there's the return shipping as well that I stand to lose. And, if he somehow decides I've tinkered with the gun, then there's shipping back to me.

So - the big question is, is the cost of relining the barrel and replacing the cylinder worth it? Of course the new cylinder wouldn't have the serial number stamped on it, but collector value is already down. I'm fine with working on the gun - not concerned about my time, it's fun for me. I've heard that shoulder stocks sell lately for $3-400. If that's the case, that means I'm into the pistol for about the same. Considering the possible shipping losses, it may be worthwhile keeping and fixing it. What do you think?

Any idea what a barrel reline and cylinder cost?

And, yes, should I not keep it, I'll definitely post the serial number and all pertinent data.

 

[Bad Karma]

I guess I'll have to figure out how to post photos. I know, it's not hard, but part of the issue is this computer I'm using.

Ok - here are more details. The seller has agreed to take it back, but won't refund shipping either way. He's insulted that I questioned "his guy's" ability or integrity who inspects and photos the guns, and possibly wrote the description. Considering the few (less than 5%) negative feedback out of 65 in the last six months, it's possible this was just one of those that 'slipped by'.

I like the gun and would like to keep it if it can be repaired economically. It's an early Centaure (1963) with the shoulder stock. Those models came with the stock, which was stamped with the gun's serial number. In this case, the stock must have been damaged or lost because this one is missing the serial number. But it is a Belgian made stock with brass furniture.

It's got the full fluted cylinder.

Both the grips and stock need to be refinished, but the wood is in good shape. Cosmetically, it's in pretty good shape. The color case hardening is good, the rear grip frame is turning to brown, and there are some minor rust spots on the barrel.

The rest, you all know about. And no, I don't believe he's already re-listed it. At this point he's saying if I've tinkered with it, he's not taking it back.

I hadn't looked into the Gun Broker help area until this transaction, so have some data to pass on. GB's help is minimal, so don't expect much from that quarter. They have a return policy that offers a max of $500, but it's got a $100 deductible, making the max payout $400. What a joke. The best piece of advice is to pay with a credit card so the transaction can be cancelled.

I paid $750 for the gun with stock plus another 38 in shipping, and then there's the return shipping as well that I stand to lose. And, if he somehow decides I've tinkered with the gun, then there's shipping back to me.

So - the big question is, is the cost of relining the barrel and replacing the cylinder worth it? Of course the new cylinder wouldn't have the serial number stamped on it, but collector value is already down. I'm fine with working on the gun - not concerned about my time, it's fun for me. I've heard that shoulder stocks sell lately for $3-400. If that's the case, that means I'm into the pistol for about the same. Considering the possible shipping losses, it may be worthwhile keeping and fixing it. What do you think?

Any idea what a barrel reline and cylinder cost?

And, yes, should I not keep it, I'll definitely post the serial number and all pertinent data.

Ouch. I looked at that auction long and hard. The reline if Bobby Hoyt does the work might be a hundred fifty or so. The cylinder is available from VTIGUNPARTS.COM go for 95.00 plus shipping. That is a damn shame.

 

[Whitworth]

Ouch. I looked at that auction long and hard. The reline if Bobby Hoyt does the work might be a hundred fifty or so. The cylinder is available from VTIGUNPARTS.COM go for 95.00 plus shipping. That is a damn shame.

I tried looking for that auction in GB's completed auctions and couldn't find it. Curious in case something in the future gets my interest I know to caveat emptor.

 

[hawkeye2]

If I were you the gun would go back right now and I'd eat the shipping. If you keep it you'll end up putting much more in it than you could loose on the shipping and the collector's value is pretty well shot now. Put the $$ into a new Uberti and shop around for a stock. I picked up a nice shoulder stock on this forum a year or so back, one small ding and a lot less than $3-400.

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Belgian shoulder stocks: most were sold with the Centaure Cavalry Model.
Most of the shoulder stocks had matching numbers.
Less than 5 % of these stocks are serial numbered but with a S/N different from the pistol but in the same serial number range.
A few stocks - probably less than 10 % - were made without serial numbers.
These are assumed to be replacement stocks or for the 3-screw frame Centaure Regular New Model Armies (RNMAs) with notches in the recoil shields and the buttstrap.
It is important to know that all shoulder stocks sold with a Cavalry Model were hand-fitted to the gun.
This was done at the Belgian factory or by the US distributor Centennial Arms Corp., Lincolnwood, IL.
Check the wood under the buttplate for a pencilled serial number.
Long Johns Wolf

 

[Notchy Bob]

I would be in the "send it back" camp, but respect the OP's decision. The barrel can be lined, as noted above, but if there is deep pitting in the chambers, in my opinion the cylinder must be replaced. I can't think of a way to repair or rehabilitate one. The "web" between the chambers is thin, at best. It is possible for these to be pitted deeply enough to blow out into an adjacent chamber. This would result in a spectacular chain fire. Elmer Keith cited rusty chambers as one of the principal causes of chain fires when shooting antique percussion revolvers.

In my opinion, the revolver in question is a wall-hanger until the cylinder can be replaced with a new one. The original cylinder will make an interesting pencil holder, or it might hold punches on your workbench.

All of this is submitted respectfully. Blackpowder and cowboy action shooters I have met are by and large the most honorable people you'll ever know. In a case like this, there's more to it than just the lost money. It's a betrayal of trust, by the seller. Best of luck to the OP, and thanks for sharing the story.

Notchy Bob